Author Topic: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?  (Read 45647 times)

Malcolm Timbers

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2008, 11:22:04 PM »
For those who may be interested:  Although The movie Apocalypse Now (1979) consciously uses the hero's journey and the ritual killing of the old, sick king in its plot, it does represent a skillful use of the boat journey through a dangerous jungle into forbidden territory  which symbolizes a very dangerous area of the unconscious where the hero will be tested to his limits, i.e., Cambodia where the Americans weren't supposed to be, but where Col. Kurtz was hold up.

I happened to catch part of this film that depicted the ritual killing of the king, so when I came across a copy of the DVD at a local store I bought it to see the whole thing. I am not a movie buff and rarely watch TV. Most of the films I watch are on TV and if I don't see anything that looks psychologically interesting I turn it off. However I found several films that were taken from popular novels that expressed archetypal motifs that I have found to represent the soul's adventures into the psychic background when the individual experiences a sense of alienation. I will be dealing with this topic in my book as well as the interesting fact that While Hollywood is consciously aware of the effects that archetypal motifs have upon people, modern psychology isn't. That is, modern science ignores the very source of a disturbed individual's malady and merely posits plausible explanations for the disorder that fit their preconceived beliefs. While Hollywood is in a business that requires it to have an astute understanding of psychology, the modern psychological community is only concerned with making sure people conform to the approved belief system. Sort of ironic, I'd say!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 03:38:14 PM by Malcolm Timbers »

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2008, 09:30:38 PM »
I’d like to mention a movie character, only looking from a different Jungian angle:

I think most would agree that Hannibal (the Cannibal) Lecter, of novel and movie fame, is portrayed as being a strong intellect, a thinker in Jungian terms, knowledgeable on many fronts.  He’s also portrayed, it seems to me, as being a powerful intuitive, able to peer into past and future, easily analyzing anyone, even from meager case material.  But here’s the rub, he’s also shown as being very much the sensation type, a connoisseur of fine music, food, and drink – questionable food, for sure, but a gourmet all the same.

Why the rub?

Well, how is it that superior intuition can exist alongside superior sensation?   

According to Jung, intuition and sensation are in opposition and cancel each other out.  One cannot develop as strongly as the other.  One must remain inferior.

So how is it that Hannibal is both?

I know he’s only a fictional character.  But according to type theory, Hannibal’s personality shouldn’t even exist.

No big deal; just thought I’d throw it out – maybe stir up a “hmmm” or two.

Sealchan

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2008, 11:28:35 AM »
My theory on typology is that our inferior function isn't necessarily dumb it is just slow.  So having a refined palette (ewwww!!!) doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have an inferior sensation function.  I've only seen brief glimpses of anything other than Silence of the Lambs, but his feeling function seems particular out of whack as well as he is extremely judgemental about people and seems non-chalant about imposing the final judgement upon them.  He may be accurate but he does not have a very moderated response!  I suspect Hannibal is an NT.  I am and I have had at least one or two dreams which have projected onto this fictional character.

Or Hannibal Lector is a character associated with some archetypal quality and the author has made sure that he has as little human weakness as possible.  So his character is more like an omniscient diety. 

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2008, 08:27:04 PM »
I guess if I were creating an imaginary monster as a person, I would want to equip him with all the necessary psychic weapons to make him a real super-psychopath.  And I couldn’t do much better than Hannibal.

He’s certainly motoring well on three cylinders (thinking, intuition and sensation).  But as a monster, Hannibal’s best quality would have to be his feeling function, skewed as it is.  He wants to rid the world of imperfection.  And what’s wrong with that?  For instance, cooking up a flutist because he couldn’t play on key.  Then, as a sort of finishing touch, serving parts of him to a few of his orchestra members!

Yes, I’d say his values are a bit out of whack.  But now he’s obviously banging on all four, and this could be the archetypal quality you mention.  Like the number one, four is a symbol of the Self, only differentiated.  So maybe Hannibal comes across as a kind of dark Self – an omniscient deity, like you say, but a negative one.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 05:35:01 PM by Rohche »

Matt Koeske

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2008, 10:42:38 AM »
Yes, I’d say his values are a bit out of whack.  But now he’s obviously banging on all four, and this could be the archetypal quality you mention.  Like the number one, four is a symbol of the Self, only differentiated.  So maybe Hannibal comes across as a kind of dark Self – an omniscient deity, like you say, but a negative one.

Hi Rohche,

This is what I see in Lecter, too.  I've been calling this figure the Shadow-Self.  Looked at psychologically (as if the stories were dreams and not literal), Lecter is only dangerous to people who stand against him or who "disappoint" him by not living up to their inner potentials.  But if you think about it, he guides Clarice through an individuation journey in Silence of the Lambs.  "Have the lambs stopped crying, Clarice?"  And, of course, he is a therapist.

I'm not sure if the 4 functions thing is the right paradigm (but then I'm always leery in general when it comes to typology).  I often get the feeling that Jungians do not adequately value the shadow as an individuation driver.  Like the Christian devil, the shadow (to the Jungian) is an abstract thing to blame for our ethical lapses and fears.  But my take on the shadow is that it is essentially the measure of darkness between us (the ego) and the Other (what we do not understand or control).  It is not just (and maybe not primarily) the things we project into the darkness, those things we don't want to hold in our identity.  It's the thing projected into, the receptacle . . . a kind of gut or bowel that receives everything we fear, reject, or don't want to be.

And as a result, it is both crazier and wiser than we are.  After all, if we were so exceptionally wise, we would have no conflicts, no troubles, no overwhelming pain and confusion, right  ;)?  So everything we don't understand (about ourselves and our lives) but perhaps could, is concealed in the shadow.  Hannibal Lecter is an expression of this, a projection of all those things we should know about ourselves but choose not to or fail to grasp.  Because we are "ignorant" or blind or unconscious, there is a shadow that knows.  And it knows what stands between us and this knowledge (what we place between in order to obstruct our knowing).  The shadow sees-through all of our gilded illusions.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2008, 08:55:59 PM »
Hi back, Matt

It was Jung who reminded the West about the light hidden in the darkness and that another name for the Devil is “Light Bringer.”  So it seems to me you have precisely the right attitude towards Shadow.  But for the life of me, I can’t see the benefit of having Hannibal as one’s Shadow – unless for the joys of fava beans and a nice Chianti.

Matt Koeske

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2008, 10:59:59 AM »
Hi back, Matt

It was Jung who reminded the West about the light hidden in the darkness and that another name for the Devil is “Light Bringer.”  So it seems to me you have precisely the right attitude towards Shadow.  But for the life of me, I can’t see the benefit of having Hannibal as one’s Shadow – unless for the joys of fava beans and a nice Chianti.

 (-)laugh2(-)

But if we are like Clarice (and not one of the cannibalized victims) wouldn't Lecter be driving us toward individuation?  If I recall the second film (only read the first book years ago), Lecter even cuts his own hand off instead of hurting Clarice (who has handcuffed him . . .to a fridge, right . . . how appropriate for one with such a unique appetite; I could be misremembering).  He definitely cares about her, as creepy as he might be.

In the first movie, he shows her how to solve her case and face her own demons at the same time.

So we could say that there is a certain perspective on Lecter (the "Clarice perspective") in which he is not merely terrifying, but also beneficial, even healing.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2008, 02:42:38 PM »
I’ll see your Shadow, and raise you an Animus.

Starling’s experience of the male characters in her life appears somewhat damaged:  Her father was shot and died when she was ten years old, presumably by male robbers.  Then, having been given over to be raised on a farm by her uncle, she witnessed him slaughter horses and lambs.  She ran away from the farm with the sound of screaming lambs still ringing in her ears.  The rest of her childhood was spent in an orphanage.

As a consequence, it is likely that Starling’s Animus was negatively effected.  And this might explain her fascination with killers.  I’m guessing her Animus would find a ready home projected onto the likes of Buffalo Bill and Lecter.  This probably even explains why she joined the FBI.  Her contact with Hannibal could then be viewed as strangely fortuitous.  An Animus projection onto Lecter would no doubt evoke a counter projection.  And, as if in therapy, Clarice and Hannibal would become locked in a struggle with their inner material.  One, like you say, to cure; the other, to find closure.

Matt Koeske

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2008, 05:23:33 PM »
I’ll see your Shadow, and raise you an Animus.

Starling’s experience of the male characters in her life appears somewhat damaged:  Her father was shot and died when she was ten years old, presumably by male robbers.  Then, having been given over to be raised on a farm by her uncle, she witnessed him slaughter horses and lambs.  She ran away from the farm with the sound of screaming lambs still ringing in her ears.  The rest of her childhood was spent in an orphanage.

As a consequence, it is likely that Starling’s Animus was negatively effected.  And this might explain her fascination with killers.  I’m guessing her Animus would find a ready home projected onto the likes of Buffalo Bill and Lecter.  This probably even explains why she joined the FBI.  Her contact with Hannibal could then be viewed as strangely fortuitous.  An Animus projection onto Lecter would no doubt evoke a counter projection.  And, as if in therapy, Clarice and Hannibal would become locked in a struggle with their inner material.  One, like you say, to cure; the other, to find closure.

I'll buy that diagnosis  (-)howdy(-).

I don't recall the book well enough nor the details (if many) of her childhood, but I would say that (if she was a real "analysand"), in order to have a shadow animus figure like Lecter, she would have had to experience more "grotesquery" than even the murder of her father and the slaughter of the lambs.  Like the cannibalism and the highly-educated sophistication and "taste" of Lecter, where does this come from?

But perhaps if she was an "simple, orphaned farm girl and daughter of a working class cop" the exaggerated "classiness" of Lecter would make an accurate compliment.  But in order for that to happen, she would have to 1.) be capable, potentially, of extreme sophistication, but 2.) be somehow stunted or kept from it so she never developed it.  Then, perhaps she could conjure up an animus like Lecter whose developed "taste" is symbolized by his penchant for eating people.  Maybe Clarice desires the finery of more sophisticated culture, but simultaneously despises it, seeing it as self-absorbed, false, pretentious.

But the degree of violence in Lecter is not really fitted to a healthy woman's animus.  Most of all, both characters seem to me to be products of the author's imagination.  His anima and his Shadow-Self, maybe.  Perhaps Lecter is a kind of ego-Self hybrid conjured up through the author's inflation/identification of the ego with the Self . . . where the homicidal trappings of Lecter could be the product of shame for identifying with the Self (which was also punishing the ego with its numinous intensity).  Or maybe, Harris felt psychically castrated by an analyst whose intelligence and sophistication outshone his own.  And he felt simultaneously devoured and healed by the shrink.


In other words, I've been watching that new HBO show, In Treatment, and my diagnosis engine is running a bit rich  (-)laugh(-).
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2008, 09:09:46 PM »
 :)

In Treatment, huh?  I’m going to have to watch that.

Matt Koeske

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2008, 09:38:51 AM »
:)

In Treatment, huh?  I’m going to have to watch that.

It's very well done, intense, dysfunctionality.  Great acting.  Very interesting especially for anybody interested in clinical psychology.

http://www.hbo.com/intreatment/

You could watch the episodes online, but the site says that is ending this week.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Rohche

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2008, 05:26:00 PM »
I watched all five shows online, and you’re right; they are very well done.  What messy, confused, hurtful beings we humans are.  I’m glad I’m not a therapist!

juli888

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Re: Top Ten "Jungian" Films?
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2010, 04:52:07 AM »
This film because of puer the aspect shown by character of Robert Redforda, Deni Fenshem Attonom. It, apparently, is deeply connected with the earth and the nature, in other words, underground Great Mother. So so, actually, that its reaction to the adult world, with its civilized rules of behavior, is exclusively adverse. And, it agree a background of Frantsu M-L, it as it is a lot of puers, is devoured in plane wreck.