Author Topic: Wrestling with Giegerich  (Read 34807 times)

Matt Koeske

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Wrestling with Giegerich
« on: April 11, 2007, 11:25:23 AM »
I will begin with a segment from the introduction to Wolfgang Giegerich's The Neurosis of Psychology.  Here he establishes his core and foundational belief about the psyche.

I will post the "nearly-pristine" excerpt from Giegerich first ("nearly" because I have highlighted some of the key passages that illustrate Giegerich's position and to which I will return to comment on in the next post).



Jung's earliest reflections that led into his later typology had served, however, the purpose of making conscious the problem of the "personal equation." The origin of his typology around 1913 and earlier had been the wish to explain psychologically the basic theoretical differences between the Freudian "eros" perspective and the Adlerian "power" perspective on psychological processes, which for lung could not be resolved by declaring the one to be true and the other false. The idea of basic attitudinal types, types of psychic movement (extraversion versus introversion), seemed to offer an explanation. What is interesting in this context is that this idea broke through the linear opposition of psychologist (student of the psychic processes) vis-à-vis the psychic processes and began to approach a circular conception of the relation between psychologist and psychological reality: the psychic movement of the libido was not only at work out there in the patient, but also in the analyst, and not separately (or the one after the other), but rather in such a way that precisely while the psychologist observed the psychic processes in the patient, he was himself subject to psychic processes, so that his explanations were just as much a psychic phenomenon as that which they were supposed to explain. It is one and the same psychological life that appears on both sides.

In the early days Jung did not yet fully realize the momentous consequences of this seminal insight of his for the basic constitution of psychology. But over the years the decisive difference between psychology and the natural sciences impressed itself upon him. It dawned on him that in psychology it was the soul itself that had to recognize the soul. This insight found its clearest and most systematic expression in Jung's late essay, "On the Nature of the Psyche" (1954, earlier version 1946). There we read,

  • [Psychology] lacks the immense advantage of an Archimedean point such as physics enjoys. … The psyche ... observes itself and can only translate the psychic back into the psychic .... There is no medium for psychology to reflect itself in: it can only portray itself in itself, and describe itself. ... [In describing psychic occurrences] [w]e have nor removed ourselves in scientific regards to a plane in any way above or besides the psychic process, let alone translated it into another medium. (CW 8 § 421, transl. modif.)
    ... [P]sychology inevitably merges with the psychic process itself. It can no longer be distinguished from the latter, and so turns into it. ... [I]t is not, in the deeper sense, an explanation of this process, for no explanation of the psychic can be anything other than the living process of the psyche itself. Psychology has to sublate itself as a science and therein precisely it reaches its scientific goal. Every other science has a point outside of itself; not so psychology, whose object is the very subject that produces all science. (§ 429, transl. modif.)

Soul is self-reflection, self-relation, and psychology (psychological explanations or descriptions) is one of the ways in which the soul reflects itself. The opposition basic to the sciences of subject and object, theory and nature, does not exist in and for psychology. Psychology cannot be a science. It is in itself and from the outset sublated science, in itself sublated 'scientific' psychology. The clear distinction between psychology and its subject-matter, the soul, cannot be maintained: psychology is itself soul and soul is interpretation of itself (psychology). Both soul and psychology follow a "uroboric" logic.

While it is one of the greatest merits of lung's psychology to have advanced to this insight, it is deplorable that lung viewed the situation of psychology, which he analyzed correctly, negatively as a "tragic thing" (§ 421) and felt that psychology therefore finds itself "in an unfortunate situation" (§ 429, transl. modif.). This negative assessment is what is in my view "the tragic thing" about Jung himself. As far as I can see, his unspoken and express ideal remained the idea of a psychology as an objective science and of the psychologist as the neutral observer of the psyche as a fact of nature (for even in the very passage that contains his amazing insight it is explicitly "in comparison with the other natural sciences" that psychology finds itself in the said unfortunate situation).

So he had only the resigned realization that—sadly—this ideal could on principle not become real. He did not measure up to his own insight. He saw it correctly, he presented us with those statements that truly overcome what we might call the prevailing positivism of the conventional scientific mind, but he perceived and evaluated them from below, from the old positivistic standpoint as his standard and measure. He did not let go of the very expectations and that value system that his own insights surpassed and shattered. His perspective, or better, the logical form of his consciousness, did not accommodate to the semantic content that his consciousness entertained. The revolutionary insight was restricted to the "semantics" of consciousness, while consciousness's "syntax" remained unaffected. Jung envisioned a grand conception from afar, but did not take the additional step of entering it, of applying it to his own mind-set or to the logical constitution of psychology. His was and remained an external reflection […] about psychology, while the message of this external reflection was that psychology is internal or immanent reflection
 
More than that, Jung was also not able to hail this situation of psychology (the way he described it) as the distinction and privilege of psychology, and as its singular opportunity. Far from being psychology's tragic handicap, the inevitable self-reflective character of psychology is actually something like its Promised Land. Only if its character would have been consciously embraced by psychology would it have come home to itself, would it have logically been united with the soul and in this way, and only in this way, become truly psychological. Its alienation or exile from its home, the land of the soul, and from its subject-matter, the life of the soul, would have ended. But Jung did not rise to the level required by his own insight, on which he could have appreciated that this complex, involved structure of self-reflection both betrays and requires a higher status of consciousness; that it is indicative of the conquest of a higher degree of logical refinement of the mind and a significant cultural advance beyond the naive innocence of the stance of immediacy for which there is an unambiguous separation of theory here and fact there.

Incredible as it is, as late as in 1954 he even openly declared the nonpsychic as the standard and measure for the psychic. "If we are to engage in fundamental reflections about the nature of the psychic, we need [!] an Archimedean point which alone makes a judgment possible. This can only be the non psychic ... " (CW 8 § 437). A clear confession on his part to external reflection as the basis of psychology in all fundamental matters and to an ultimately "positivistic" stance. When it is a question of the nature of the psychic itself, then all of a sudden the psychic does no longer have "everything it needs within itself."? Rather, Jung suggests that you have to have left psychology and taken your position outside the psyche-become unpsychological-to become able to understand the nature of the psyche. He gives a reason for his view in the continuation of the quoted sentence: " ... for, as a living phenomenon, the psychic lies embedded in something that appears to be of a non psychic nature. Although we perceive the latter as a psychic datum only, there are sufficient reasons for believing in its objective reality." The ordinary, everyday world-experience of the ego is assumed to be decisive. This experience is what Jung here makes his basis. While empirically and semantically the whole world is, as Jung stresses again and again, embedded in the psyche and we are inescapably surrounded by the psyche on all sides (which is even confirmed once more also in this very quote: "a psychic datum only"), logically, epistemically, and syntactically it is the other way around for him. Jung (at least here) does not want psychology to take its own medicine, that medicine which is, e.g., expressed in his warning (concerning the individual psychological phenomenon), "Above all, don't let anything from outside, that does not belong, get into it ... " He does not want psychology to go under in its own interiority in order to find the deepest "truth" about itself exclusively within itself and through its own self-reflection.

However, he is able to rescue it from its own interiority only by means of a dissociation. The (alchemical) "Immersion in the Bath" is, as it were, reserved for the experiencing individual in the practice of psychology (analysis), but refused when it comes to "fundamental reflections" on the part of psychological theory, i.e., when it is a question of the logical form of psychology itself.

This inability of Jung's to see the basic situation of psychology described and lamented by him, namely that it does not have an Archimedean point, as a fundamental step forward on the part of the soul is, by the way, one of the reasons why he needed vehemently and, as it were, "instinctively" to reject Hegel.

But be that as it may, despite these shortcomings, Jung did bequeath to us the precious insight into the mutual entwinement of psychological observation and observed psychic phenomenology and the inextricable immersion of psychology as a theoretical discipline in that which this discipline is about, namely the soul's life. Psychology does not have the soul's life neatly in front of itself as a positivity, a natural given. It is from the outset itself an expression of this life, so that it has the life of the soul at once in front of itself and behind its back, as its a posteriori and its a priori. This is what it means to say that the soul is self-reflection. The self-reflective character of the soul has the consequence that the soul's life on principle cannot be a self-same (thing-like) object for psychology, a 'fact.' The soul is in this sense not to be comprehended as a piece of nature, nor in ontological terms (in terms of being: as an entity, a substance). It is essentially mental, noetic, logical.* It is not an immediate, but in itself an already reflected reality. There is not first a soul as an existing entity that then also happens to reflect itself as one of its activities. "The soul" is self-reflection and nothing else: it is interpretation and what it is the interpretation of is itself interpretation. We could express it this way: the real occurrence of such self-reflection, the event that a "uroboric" logic has become explicit, is what we call, with a still mythologizing and substantiating name, "the soul." And because "soul" and "psychology" are only two different moments of the same in the sense of the unity of the unity and difference of psychology and soul, psychology is likewise not a theory about or interpretation of certain straightforward (immediate) natural facts or events. Having a self-reflective structure, it is the interpretation of interpretations (views, theories) of reality. When I said that psychology cannot be a science, I meant that it cannot operate with the fiction that it has its object directly vis-à-vis itself and that this object is what it is, independent of its (psychology's) interpretations.

  • * “Logical” in this discourse means 'of logos-nature.' It does of course in no way want to suggest that the soul always conforms to the formal laws of correct reasoning (logic in the instrumental, technical sense). It is not a reference to the special philosophical discipline called formal logic. It is much closer to the (however imaginal) alchemical concept 'mercurial.'

Through these considerations based on Jung's later insights our notion of "critical psychology" has become much more complex and deeper. A critical psychology in this sense implies a psychology that tries to get to and hold itself on the level of the uroboric logic briefly described. It remains of course to us to draw from Jung's insight the necessary consequences that he could not fully draw for himself. What was and remained for him an envisioned content of his thinking in front of consciousness has to become for us the very basis as well as the intrinsic logical form of our psychological thinking itself. …

« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 11:40:31 AM by Matt Koeske »
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Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2007, 05:25:06 PM »
Quote from: Wolfgang Giegerich
But over the years the decisive difference between psychology and the natural sciences impressed itself upon him. It dawned on him that in psychology it was the soul itself that had to recognize the soul.

Quote from: Wolfgang Giegerich
Soul is self-reflection, self-relation, and psychology (psychological explanations or descriptions) is one of the ways in which the soul reflects itself. The opposition basic to the sciences of subject and object, theory and nature, does not exist in and for psychology. Psychology cannot be a science. ... The clear distinction between psychology and its subject-matter, the soul, cannot be maintained: psychology is itself soul and soul is interpretation of itself (psychology). Both soul and psychology follow a "uroboric" logic.


This is Giegerich's fundamental idea.  On one hand, this is a truism.  It is the state of our existence to have reality filtered through a sieve of perception that distorts this reality (to various degrees and in various ways).

But Giegerich takes this limitation of human psychology as a kind of existential weight from which specific intellectual convulsions must proceed.  In my opinion this is an assumption that I find overly-dramatic.  One (if one were me  ;)) might call this dramatic approach to psychology a "nihilistic implosion". 

In Derrida, we get the revised notion of aporia, which for Socrates was the state of realization that we actually know nothing, or that our notions of a thing were founded on illusions . . . at which point we have achieved an openness that allows us to truly learn.  But for Derrida (as I understand it) aporia had more to do with the result of deconstructing a text.  That is, when we remove the syntactical assumptions that textual meanings are based on, the text will eventually collapse into a primal meaninglessness.  From this we might conclude that there is no innate meaning, only the illusion of meaning created by webs of shared assumptions (which are based in cultural, or are perhaps unconscious, just not collective unconscious, constructions).

Therefore, "There is nothing outside of the text."  This is fundamentally the same approach that Giegerich takes to the psyche . . . so I will, it seems, have to revise my earlier statement that Giegerich is not a deconstructionist.  On of my gripes with deconstruction is that, recognizing this aporia, the deconstructionists are freed from the responsibility of "meaning-making" or a kind of communication that is dedicated to and values the Other.  What a rationalist like me might see as the typical fallout from this linguistic relinquishment of responsibility to the Other is an eruption of masturbatory egoism.  The "rules" of communication are discarded, the borders dissolved . . . and now the ego can muck around in the purely abstract stuff it is most oriented to . . . and without any outside force (again, the Other) pressuring it to abide by an agreed upon system of discourse for the sake of communication or understandability.

In Jungian terms, we might call this the "puer mentality", a freeing of oneself from the obligations of groundedness, that agreed upon "reality" in which a sense (yes, a constructed sense, but that is not the point) of commonality ("the common ground") prevails.  Then there is the flight of pure thought, pure imagination, pure abstraction.  But the "hitch" in puer psychology is that this freedom is internal and isolating (i.e., an-Erotic).  Also, the granting of such freedom to oneself seems to constellate a shadow provider of this privilege.  That is, to grant or allow such a freedom of detachment, we are forced to constellate a self/other dynamic.  Detachment from what?  And who is allowing or granting it to whom?

Therefore, the puer mentality demands an invisible enabler.  The puer's leash is very long . . . but there is a leash.  Mythologically, we associate this enabler most with the Mother (for the puer male).  We might say that the puer feels distantly protected by this invisible Mother, and therefore feels enabled to detach from Eros and responsibility to others/the Other.

It doesn't really require all that much insight to realize that we exist in webs of arbitrary illusion.  The real trick is to figure out that, illusion or not, this is the nature of our existence.  It is the fabric that connects all of us.  In transcending it (maya), we are essentially making a value judgment that the Other is not worthy of our attention and relationship.  Effectively, this means that the ego-self is given a hierarchical rank on the top of the ladder of valuation.  But this selfishness or narcissism, regardless of what we might want, can still violate and injure other people.  Even in our detachment, we are not free from Eros.  Examined deeply enough, we can come to see that there is no escape from Eros or from the responsibility for our effects on others.  If there was an escape, it would require absolute isolation.  There would be no reason to interact with others on any level.  This state is equivalent to death . . . and when we are living, a force (the libido) opposes such a state, pushing us toward existence and survival (we must eat, for instance).

The ego does not have absolute control over the body . . . and certainly has limited control over other people and the greater, material world.

Sometimes we approach this state of death pathologically, in depression . . . where the pain of engagement or Eros has caused us to retreat from its connective life instinct.  But it is often in such depressions (once we let go or retreat sufficiently) that we are confronted with a new and inescapable Other: the Self (a process of reestablishing Eros).

So, for either the deconstructionists or Giegerich, we are forced to move from a smaller conundrum to a larger one.  We are pressured to move from the recognition that our worlds are psychically (and arbitrarily) constructed to a recognition that that original recognition is itself not a justification for specific action or even attitude (e.g., retreat or narcissistic abstraction).  It is life or nature or the Other that applies this pressure.

What I mean by "nihilistic implosion" is the puer's dramatic "dying fall" in reaction to the recognition of maya.  That our worlds are arbitrary and psychic is not a reason to treat them any differently or not participate in them or throw our hands in the air hysterically and gnash our teeth.

This is where Giegerich seems to surpass the deconstructionists.  He suffers a mild case of nihilistic implosion, but still chooses to honor the psychic . . . even exalt it.

The problem (for Giegerich) then becomes the nature of the psychic.  What is it?  Is it a oneness?  Is it personified?  How do we relate to it?  What is its meaning?  So here we must return to Giegerich . . . .

Quote from: Wolfgang Giegerich
The soul is [...] not to be comprehended as a piece of nature, nor in ontological terms (in terms of being: as an entity, a substance). It is essentially mental, noetic, logical.* It is not an immediate, but in itself an already reflected reality. There is not first a soul as an existing entity that then also happens to reflect itself as one of its activities. "The soul" is self-reflection and nothing else: it is interpretation and what it is the interpretation of is itself interpretation. We could express it this way: the real occurrence of such self-reflection, the event that a "uroboric" logic has become explicit, is what we call, with a still mythologizing and substantiating name, "the soul."

Giegerich contrasts this with a quote from Jung (that Giegerich finds "tragic"):
Quote
"If we are to engage in fundamental reflections about the nature of the psychic, we need an Archimedean point which alone makes a judgment possible. This can only be the non psychic ... for, as a living phenomenon, the psychic lies embedded in something that appears to be of a non psychic nature. Although we perceive the latter as a psychic datum only, there are sufficient reasons for believing in its objective reality. (CW 8 § 437)"

Here, I agree with Jung.  Therefore, it is my burden to demonstrate what those "sufficient reasons" for believing in this non-psychic, objective, "Archimedean point" are . . . and how we can discern their difference from what Giegerich calls the psychic.

To begin with, I get the impression that Giegerich wants to see the psychic as a oneness, a substance that is all essentially the same.  A reason for this perspective is apparent: our realities are constructed by our perceptions . . . and there is no way around this predicament, no way to "perceive actually".  We can never actually "experience" a rock we hold in our hands, we can only know how it appears or means to us.  Human consciousness contaminates everything it comes in contact with.  It is fundamentally concerned with what is useful (and to some degree similar) to it.

But I think we need to make a deeper differentiation here.  How do we perceive?  Do we just have this uroboric, self-reflected thing called psyche that is our instrument of perception . . . case closed?  That might be the intuitive "truth" . . . the "whole", the pattern or system . . . but how is this intuitive perception composed?  What are its elements?  Is the stuff of the psyche only a system or does it have components?

I was reading an article recently in a computer engineering journal, IEEE Spectrum.  It had to do with hierarchical learning and memory.  The application of this research was artificial intelligence, but the study originates in an understanding of human perception and cognition.  The researcher (Jeff Hawkins) talks about the composition of cognitive information in memory . . . and how the brain probably stores memory with maximum efficiency.  Instead of every bit of memory being encoded as raw data (like a computer file), Hawkins sees data remembered in associative, hierarchical, branching "root-systems".  So, when we are learning what a dog is, the brain starts off with elemental information on the dog (e.g., fur, tail, four legs, etc.) . . . but when we then experience a cat, we do not have to start over from scratch in the same way.  We know (the brain knows, that is) that the cat is like a dog in many ways, but is defined by its differences.

As we continue to learn, experience, "develop ego", memory becomes more and more complexly associative and comparative in this way.  Hawkins proposes that an actual visual look at the neocortex might give us an idea of how these associative "memory trees" "look".  Here's an image of just one unfolded layer of the neocortex:



If we want to find a parallel in Jungian thinking, we need only to look at the concept of the sensation function (and its relationship to intuition).  In the memory hierarchies that Hawkins proposes, the very bottom would contain the elemental (sensation) data (e.g., fur, tail, says "woof"), while the top hierarchies (intuition) would contain concepts of the whole (e.g., dog).  But the whole is founded on its elements.

The notion that the whole is entirely separate from or even transcends its elemental bits is what I often call the "intuitive fallacy" . . . and this fallacy predominates in the Jungian mindset.  And not only the Jungian mindset, but many spiritual mindsets are stricken with the intuitive fallacy.  We might, for instance, contemplate the idea of Buddhist detachment as a willed blindness toward the foundational elements of human existence (maya . . . relationship, belief, socialization, living in the world, the flesh, etc.).  The intuitive fallacy always requires a devaluation of the parts in favor of the whole in order to operate in its "bliss realm".  And it is obvious that our consciousness favors such wholes over their component parts.  This allows cognition to function much more efficiently.  That is, the basic elements are first perceived and then organized and reorganized (as more perceived data is related to them) unconsciously or autonomously.

The ego is concerned with (and operates in the "environment" of) complexes of relational information.  It juggles a few of these balls at a time . . . but it doesn't make the balls.  Therefore, we might equally refer to the intuitive fallacy as the "ego fallacy" . . . although, to be more precise, the ego is concerned mostly with "medium sized balls".  Super-large systems cannot be practically and efficiently juggled or easily used to formulate identity-strategies (without significant, abstracting “reductionism”).  In this sense, high-level, systemic intuitions are just as autonomously constructed as low-level, elemental sensations.  As always, the ego is most oriented to what is useful to it.  That is, the ego is strategic in the way it perceives, values, and utilizes information . . . and less useful information appears to be stored more "unconsciously".

In this dynamic of cognition, we can easily recognize two distinct "centers" (but perhaps "poles" would be a better term): the ego and the unconscious, that autonomous expanse of "less immediately useful" information and instincts or processes that operate without consciousness or egoic will.

The question (in regards to Giegerich’s ideas) then is whether these two cognitive poles operate under the same dynamic (or category) . . . and also whether this dynamic is really "self-contained".  But we should keep in mind that, abstractly, we can imagine any two things as related under one category.  That is, we can assign an abstract category that can enclose any two things (regardless of how many elemental differences there are).  We can even say that everything everywhere is the universe or matter or God.  These abstractions are not "truths", per se.  They are reflections on reality, applications of projected paradigms (and as I mentioned above, they can be reductive about the elements).

Although it is easy to recognize some of the basic differences between the ego and the unconscious, the similarities can be trickier to discern (or imagine).  For instance, despite thousands of years of ascribing our egoism to spirit or divine breath mysteriously breathed into our material forms, we must scientifically conclude that the ego emerges from the unconscious (or the Self), that it is a product or expression of the unconscious . . . and that it has a specific cognitive function in accordance with evolutionary adaptation.  This is still a great mystery in both science and philosophy.  I.e., why the ego?  Why this device that seems so "unlike" the rest of us?

Neuroscience (still a fledgling science) is able to tell us this much: our "consciousness" seems to be a cooperative of various cognitive modules.  That is, consciousness is fragmentary.  But our sense of identity (the ego) seems to exist among this cooperative, yet "non-locally".  So far we have learned that many of the cognitive components of our perception and thinking do have locality in the brain . . . and we might hypothesize that neuroscience will continue to pinpoint and identify local modules.  Still, we are remiss to believe that our egos can be the product of a "mechanistic" cooperative of cognitive modules, i.e., that consciousness and sense of self exist as a high-level on a hierarchy of increasingly non-conscious apparatuses.

Of course, most cognitive scientists and artificial intelligence researchers have no problem believing in the possibility that consciousness can in fact be "created" hierarchically form smaller, lower-level, non-conscious parts (local mechanisms).  And, although we have yet to prove or disprove this, we need to be honest with ourselves enough to recognize that these cognitive scientists are not simply the pawns of "positivism" and obtuse rationalistic ideologies.  The data we have so far (regardless of our interpretation of it) does indicate that such a hierarchical consciousness is highly probably.  This recognition does not require a prejudice or a philosophy.  If we wish to reject these cognitive models of consciousness, we have to reject the data they are founded on . . . not merely an arbitrary belief system.

I find it intellectually irresponsible to assume that we (as psychologists) are entitled to reject potentially pertinent data, simply because it doesn't suit our preferred intuitive belief system and dogma.  And it seems to me that Giegerich is coming dangerously close to this.  Perception is not merely a high-level abstraction.  Even if the ego perceives information on this level, we know that the organism perceives on other non-conscious levels both above and below the ego on the perceptual hierarchy.

So, I believe we have to be extremely cautious about asserting egoism in these non-egoic centers of perception.  That is, we know that these unconscious perceptors do not share the ego's sense of usefulness.  We know they either have a completely different sense of usefulness (as a basis for what they perceive and store) or that they don't operate on a usefulness dynamic at all (i.e., they are more mechanical than strategic).

These non-egoic perceptors, if they are essentially "mechanical", do not have to be "psychic" in the sense that Giegerich proposes.  That is, there is a level in this notion of the unconscious at which information or memory or cognition has a specific biological parallel in the brain.  There, spirit and matter are one.  This is what memory hierarchicalism entails.  We see this hierarchical structure all throughout nature . . . everything is made of smaller things which are made of smaller things, all the way down to subatomic levels . . . and perhaps to charges, spins, waveforms, magnetisms.  Matter may very well be fundamentally "immaterial" . . . but even if it is immaterial, it is clearly hierarchical.

It is not even remotely surprising to find hierarchicalism in nature.  It would be surprising to find non-hierarchicalism in something natural, though.  Say, human beings.

Even if this line of reasoning is enough to dismantle Giegerich's unified and specialized formulation of psyche (and although I believe it is, I seriously doubt Giegerich would concede the same), we are still left with one of the core problems of consciousness.  That is, there is definitely something to Giegerich's notion that "'The soul' is self-reflection and nothing else: it is interpretation and what it is the interpretation of is itself interpretation."

In other words, we are disinclined (due to our essential egoism) to look upon what may be the more mechanical or biological elements of cognition (the unconscious) as mechanical or biological.  Everything we perceive, we perceive egoically.  That is, we perceive its nature in relation to our own construction of self, or our nature.  To what degree and in which ways does it resemble "me"?  We can see in this the same model of hierarchical memory formation that is proposed by Jeff Dawkins in the "Learn Like a Human" article.  Ego seems to be constructed hierarchically in conjunction with memory.  Ego is constructed in relation to memory (and reciprocally, constructs memory in the way it valuates and privileges ego-likeness).  We might even see in this a kind of self-perpetuation: the more the ego develops a specific concept of self, the more it is inclined to privilege self-likeness.

Until, of course, its self-concept starts to break down, becomes dysfunctional as a living strategy.  It is in this state of neurosis that we are often most powerfully confronted with an Otherness from the unconscious part of psyche.  But of course, we are damned to see this otherness in familiar terms . . . and as "me-like" as it can be (while still maintaining its numen of Otherness).  So it is highly likely to be personified, anthropomorphized.  Egoism is projected onto it.

So the question then is, does having an ego mean that we can never perceive a thing (a not-me) objectively?  Is psyche really a damnation.  My answer to that is, "Yes and no".  Yes, we will always be inclined to perceive everything egoically, "as-if", as a strategic story, an abstraction, is it pertains to, is similar to, or may be useful to us.  But, no, this is not a damnation.

It isn't a damnation, the ego-prison is not escape-proof . . . because the ego is only ever a fiction, an arbitrary strategy.  Its story of self is plastic.  It is therefore transformable and regulatable . . . not fixed.  If the ego were fixed, it would not be adaptable to human culture and its complex barrage of information.  What we can observe in psychotherapy is an attempt to revise ego-strategies in order to live (in the world) more harmoniously (adaptively).  We have learned that psychotherapies work best as cooperations between self and other . . . and also, that there appears to be a self-regulatory process in such ego-revisions that emerges instinctually from the unconscious.

In Jungian analysis, the analyst tries to work in accord with this self-regulatory process as it is perceived in the patient.  The effectiveness of the analyst is very heavily determined by his or her ability to take cues from the patient's unconscious expressions (especially dreams and acts of imagination or fantasy that seem to carry a lot of unconscious contents with them).  The Jungian analyst, then, is an "instinct surrogate" or instinct advocate for the patient, who, by his or her material "realness" helps the patient recognize the unconscious Other as real or valid.  As familiar.

This process does not require the patient (the ego) to see the unconscious (or the Self) non-egoically at all . . . but it does require a new development or revision in the ego's story of self.  But should we want to study this process, discover what in it is universal or typical (as the analyst must in order to best serve the regulatory, instinctual process of the patient), we must make an attempt to differentiate and delimit our egoism.  This is an attempt to construct a new story or system of valuation that is not designed specifically to serve the ego, but to serve the process of ego-restrategizing itself.  This requires a great deal of flexibility in reworking strategies based on individual distinctiveness from patient to patient, but it also has its universals . . . it is, after all, an instinctual process that we are trying to understand here, and therefore something rooted in the biology or nature of our speicies.

In this attempt, what seems to be our short-coming (egoism or projective perception), ends up proving to be a strength.  Our capacity to see ourselves in others (and in other things) is equally an ability to recognize otherness in ourselves.  We are capable of imagining ourselves in different ego-strategies or with different limitations or abilities.  This projective nature of the ego can function as a kind of conduit between polarities, between self and other.  Yes, there is an "agreed upon" limitation to this conduit set by how "me-like" we are able to see the Other as.  We can think of this like a capacity for a pipeline.  Pipeline X can move a maximum number of cubic gallons of water per second through itself.  But with our consciousness, this maximum capacity is set by our ability to relate the Otherness to ourselves.  Beyond the max. capacity, we are unable to make a useful association, and so the Other seems alien to us to the degree that we cannot relate our sense of self to it.

So in this model, we are perceiving the Other (which, in my opinion is an instinctual process . . . which, in an argumentative approach such as this, would require its own argument or "proof" . . . but as I have taken this up in other posts, I will forgo it here), but only insomuch as we can associate it with the familiar, with ourselves.  As a self-regulatory process addressed to the ego-position would seem to have designs on the restructuring of consciousness, it "must" therefore be a conscious entity . . . or so this is how the ego works.  This is the nature of archetypal personification.

But as we step back and try to pinpoint the universal aspects of this interchange, we can see that, in spite of our propensity for personification, these archetypal beings have numerous qualities of instinctual, biological processes.  We understand this, because we can observe these processes (and usually the "evolutionary logic" of these processes) in other animals to which we do not attribute consciousness (as they seem to us to be excessively not-like-me).  In animals (if we have a shred of scientific rigor), we recognize these processes as biological (even if they are, as instincts, non-local . . . or more like "software" than hardware).  Therefore, we can assume that our own instinctual processes are similar.  We also know that we ourselves have an autonomous, unconscious, self-regulatory aspect that functions without our willing it or even perceiving it.  Here, we see clearly that we are like other animals.

From this sort of line of reasoning, we are able to extrapolate the likelihood that our own instinctual processes share a similar foundation in nature to those of other animals.  And we can also (if we have studied ego-consciousness as a phenomenon) hypothesize logically that our egos must operate with the "prejudice" of self-relationality and projection.  Therefore, we can derive a notion that, in matters of psychological understanding, the ego must be considered to present a standard "margin of error" in our knowing.  But this margin of error need not consign our knowing to absolute arbitrariness.  We can understand that there is a scale of value or "trueness" to our knowledge.  Some things we can determine to be unequivocally true.  Other things can be seen as true or truer based on a logical construction of them.  And still other things may never be even remotely provable.  But we do not exist in a chaotic realm of utter randomness or unknowableness.  We are capable of perceiving order, even as our reaction to that perception might be arbitrary, subjective, or relativistic.

So, as we formulate a notion of ego-perception as a margin of error (and a fairly substantial one), we can create or imagine a new and Other perspective to some degree.  We can start to valuate information perceived in terms of how egoic it appears, how significantly it can be seen to serve the predominating ego-strategy.  Thus, even as we come to the understanding of the immense degree of perceptual arbitrariness of our consciousness, we can also use our cognitive plasticity to imagine a not-me or Other based on the autonomous unconscious beyond our control that operates mechanistically, without consciousness, instinctively, as a self-regulating and self-sustaining process evolved to serve the libido and adaptability of the organism to its environment.

This is why I must side with Jung and against Giegerich on this issue.  There is an Archimedean point outside the ego (which Giegerich muddles somewhat by calling it the "psyche" . . . in a way unlike Jung defined the psyche), which we can intuit and imaginatively (psychically) reconstruct to the degree that we learn how to relate to it and see ourselves in it.  So, Giegerich is correct in the sense that this Archimedean point isn't really “outside” the psyche/ego . . . it is only modeled on this outside otherness.  But Jung is also correct that our ability to recognize and construct this Archimedean point is essential to our ability to understand the psyche without excessive egoism contaminating it . . . and that there is every indication that a "positivistic" or biological lower-level cognitive hierarchy exists behind the egoic perceptions of psyche.  We can even use egoic psyche to “posit” this biological, elemental foundation.  It is not incapable of doing this with a high degree of credibility.

Ultimately, the core conflict between Jung's perspective and Giegerich's seems to be heavily semantic.  Jung's definition of psyche is both egoic and positivistic or biological . . . but he recognizes that we only perceive the positive through the limited perceptions of the ego (or, as Giegerich might say, "negatively".  Jung's concept of the Self is of a biological, instinctual, universal "positive" to which we must relate to "negatively" or egoically.  And there is no reason to whine about this . . . as it is our nature and not itself a "failing".  Therefore psychic phenomenon should still be taken seriously, taken as real.  There is no true valuative divide between the psychic and the real . . . and to concoct one, we must don a prejudicial, personal philosophy or ideology.  Jung associated that prejudice with rationalism or materialism.

Giegerich, on the other hand, takes Jung's psyche/soul, but interprets it more abstractly than Jung did.  Giegerich's soul is Jung's ego . . . but it is slightly more complex (and abstract) than this, because Giegerich's soul is also Jung's ego perceiving and reconstructing Jung's Self.  But the difference on this core level is a difference in language more so than in meaning.

I may go on eventually to deal with Giegerich's notions of psychology that he feels differ from Jung's, but that is enough for today.  I'm not convinced such an attempt is really necessary, anyway (as my reactions are implicitly contained in what I have written here).

For now, though, I hope you will permit me the small arrogance of a parting "bow" and the epitaph (which you may certainly tell me I have or have not earned):

        Thesis.  Antithesis.  Synthesis.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

rgh

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2007, 07:19:12 PM »
Hmmm,  how can I put this?

Matt, eventually one reaches a point where all these words are seen for what they are. Eventually we come to realise that we have nothing else but ourselves and the universe of our life, and that what we need is what we need, and what we see as reasonable is all we can really accept into our lives.
So for me, my argument would be simple. Jung good. Geigerich bad.
Endless intellectual argument leaves nothing but dry pages floating in the wind, lost in time, falling into the dust.

It doesn't matter what anyone else says - unless it takes you somewhere you want to go, or need to go.
All the rest is chaff.

Btw, your point about the so called Jungian community misses one fundamental reason for its alloofness. It is a human organisation, an organisation of lots of little organisations. These organisations - as distinct from the people in them  - are peddlars. Peddlars of authority - pedlars of paper reasons why you can practise Jungian psychotherapy.
Ultimately it just doesn't matter. What comes to us from Jung comes. What we do with it is our lot to decide.

Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 08:52:38 PM »
Hmmm,  how can I put this?

Matt, eventually one reaches a point where all these words are seen for what they are. Eventually we come to realise that we have nothing else but ourselves and the universe of our life, and that what we need is what we need, and what we see as reasonable is all we can really accept into our lives.
So for me, my argument would be simple. Jung good. Geigerich bad.
Endless intellectual argument leaves nothing but dry pages floating in the wind, lost in time, falling into the dust.

It doesn't matter what anyone else says - unless it takes you somewhere you want to go, or need to go.
All the rest is chaff.

Hi Robert,

I know what you're saying.  My bias is also intuition and feeling.  Before I roll out some kind of connect-the-dots lingua-rama, I already know what the conclusion is (intuition) and how I feel about it.  I'm not as invested in the logical language games as I am in the ultimate valuation that comes from the pursuit . . . and they are games.  It's hard for me to not take it theatrically.

But I do believe there is a potential value in these pursuits (although perhaps not in my attempt to "debate" Giegerich).  I think we Jungians are all too likely to declare we know, we Know!  If I had a dime for every Jungian declaration of mystical, intuitive "Knowing" . . . .  It's very easy to be a lazy, selfish Knower . . . and the Jungian personality excels at this vice.

Too few Jungians can follow a line of argument from point A to point C (let alone Z).  And more often than not, their shadows are left in the gap (sometimes spanning all the way between A and Z!).  I fear this inability all points to dogmatization of Jungian thinking.  We think we don't need to know how to move back and forth on the roads of thought, but an ability to truly understand and apply the ideas we occupy ourselves with is sacrificed.  But the road between is the cure to fundamentalism (as well as stupidity).

Another value in this is in the defiance of the gravity of self-involvement.  We Jungians are so enormously self-involved.  The ability to think and argue and express oneself is a potential tool for communication and Eros.  Language and ideas can be a bridge to get us off our little islands.

The deeper reason for elaborating an argument like the one above is to make a concession to the other.  It's a gesture, an offer to meet at a third, in-between place . . . somewhere where each individual can get out of his or her dried skin a bit.  My motivation for formulating an argument against Giegerich in a language that might be seen as a compromise between mine and his came from a feeling . . . not an intellectual need.  Kafiri's comment after my first posts on Giegerich's language (gut posts) pinned me in my introverted complacency and made me feel guilty.  I felt guilty because I posted and deigned to criticize the Giegerich piece that Kafiri sent me (without even warning Kafiri I was going to do either).  This guilt segued into a companion guilt for too easily dismissing Giegerich.  I had dismissed him on my own level and out of my own prejudices.

My first attempt at a letter draft (at Kafiri's request) afterward struck me as intellectually lazy and even a bit idiotic and self-righteous of me.  Thus, I decided that the best thing I could do was to try to engage with Giegerich's idea on its own level and beyond the normal realm where I operate (intuitive feeling).

Is there any point at all to this pomp and circumstance?  I don't know.  Probably not.  It is a formal or ritual gesture.  I don't know if it will ever happen that Giegerich will read anything I write (let alone these posts).  I don't know why he would be interested.  But I have a weird sense of chivalry that leaps up and nips at me from time to time.  It's generally taken as an affectation, but so be it.

Luckily, no one was hurt by all the flying rhetoric.  I will even be surprised if anyone reads the long post above.  But it is more of a personal Eros gesture for me . . . not a core expression of my theories.  But I'm still glad I did it.  I feel something came of it at least on a persona level . . . even if it was only a theatrical act of repentance.

Btw, your point about the so called Jungian community misses one fundamental reason for its alloofness. It is a human organisation, an organisation of lots of little organisations. These organisations - as distinct from the people in them  - are peddlars. Peddlars of authority - pedlars of paper reasons why you can practise Jungian psychotherapy.
Ultimately it just doesn't matter. What comes to us from Jung comes. What we do with it is our lot to decide.

No doubt.  But I have derived my "person truth" from Jung . . . and that's all fine for me.  But I don't want to see Jung and the Jungian community as "free mints" I can snatch up to my hearts' content without even saying thanks.  I feel an obligation, from all I have received, to give something back.  But I am a pauper.  The best I have to give is criticism, my time, my mind, my voice.  Even if it isn't (and will never be) appreciated, even if it is openly despised . . . it's all I have.  So when I come to my moments of cynicism and wonder if Jungians are, like you say, "peddlers of paper reasons" (and I have my share of such moments), I eventually come around to the notion that, if I really do perceive an objectionable loss or lack in the Jungian community (and therefor feel such a lack is less apparent or objectionable in myself) . . . then who am I to criticize if I hoard this wealth to myself?  The Jungian community doesn't exist to serve me.  Ideally it should be serving Jungian psychology.  So, I feel that I am obliged to earn my intuitive-feeling grumbles by trying to address them constructively to Jungian psychology itself.  I feel I should endeavor to serve it.

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2007, 05:18:03 PM »
From The Neurosis of Psychology, "Ontogeny = Phylogeny? A Fundamental Critique of Erich Neumann's Analytical Psychology" (p27-29):

Quote
When at this point we pause to reflect, we realize that it should have been clear from the outset that, as regards phylogeny, we are dealing with an archetypal or mythical idea. How was it possible for this myth to be confused with empirical history in the first place? Of course, genesis is a theory, a point of view, a fantasy, and not a fact! Even in biology, where this fantasy is at home and where there are many more facts supporting it, this remains a truism. Thus, Adolf Portmann, speaking as a biologist, frequently describes the concept of evolution as what it is: not a scientific truth, but a matter of faith. As a myth it is indeed a religious idea, and that is why it exerts such a tremendous fascination and captivates not only Neumann but also those who follow him. Because it is an archetypal and religious system, it forces itself upon consciousness as having absolute, unquestionable truth and therefore remains unreflected, even unseen, so that, like the repressed, it must return "outside" in history, as an "observed" empirical fact.

[…] It is not our business as psychologists to base our insights on historical or biological facts. For if this were so, psychology would be a branch or offshoot of biology and history. We are not historians, and we are not (or ought not to be) concerned with empirical, but with psychological truth, that is to say with the imaginal. And it is therefore from the imagination that we should derive our knowledge. The historian or biologist may be concerned with a possible factual evolution, but even then it would be the task of the psychologist to remind him (if he should forget what Portmann realized) that "evolution" is an archetypal idea and is not grounded in empirical nature. It seems, however, that at present we psychologists have to be told by the biologist (Portmann) what should have been a basic insight for us. Something (some "factor") obviously keeps us from the truly psychological orientation and makes our thinking un-psychological by making us wish for, or even need, empirical verification, scientific truth, and systematizations. This "factor" is our containment in the Great Mother/Hero myth, whose nature it is to create the (mythic!) fantasy of the possibility of heroically breaking out of myth, into "fact," "truth," "science."
 
The amalgamation of the imaginal with the empirical is not without consequences. Thus, the archetype is said to have a historical aspect (in addition to its "eternal" significance). Philosophically speaking, this is a fallacy for which there can be no support. How can an arche-typon, a primordial image, have a genetic or historical aspect? Jung terms the archetypes "categories of the imagination," or also "divine figures." That a category could in itself have a historical aspect is a contradictio in se. 'Quantity', 'time', 'causality' as categories remain forever what they are. They do not develop, even if our knowledge and ideas about them might change. The Gods too are, in principle, timeless; they live "in eternal youth." The divine child is always a child, the old wise man was never a youth. To be sure, there is an archetype of development, just as there also is a God of history, but there is no development, no regular sequence of the archetypes, and thus there are no archetypal phases. One could never succeed in establishing a consistent chronology of events reported in the various myths because mythic "events" do not, in principle, follow one upon the other as in empirical time, but are, as images, juxtaposed and contaminated with each other. To put the cause of development into the archetypal realm, into the world of the Gods, is to reduce the archetypes; although one may still conceive of them as transpersonal and place them in the "beyond" of the collective unconscious, nevertheless, they would now be limited to empirical-temporal conditions. It would mean that one brought the Gods down from Olympus and deprived the categories of their a priori character, as conversely history would be freed of its earthly weight. For there would then be only the "stories above" (Thomas Mann), and no longer history below, but the myths (the stories above) would have to take over the character of history too.

[…]Although actually self-evident, it nevertheless must still be stressed that evolution, if it should exist, belongs to the phenomenal realm, and thus can be explained only a posteriori, from empirical conditions, not from the archetypes.

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Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2007, 05:35:11 PM »
From The Neurosis of Psychology, "No Alibi! Comments on 'The Autonomous Psyhce. A Communication to Goodheart from the Bi-Personal Field of Paul Kugler and James Hillman'" (p99-101):

Quote
The fantasy of "nature" drove man into an inescapable search, a real petitio principii: the systematic uncovering and unfolding of its fantasy of the world in search of its unknown first principle at ever new levels of sophistication. If, as Jung said, the anima is the mediatrix to the unknown, physics is a single gigantic anima adventure and highly psychological.

Second, by being entirely thrown back on itself, physics had no escape. It was cornered, given over to Necessity, forced onto an inevitable course, the course of an analytical insearch for ever deeper, more hidden causes contained in "nature," i.e., in physics' fundamental vision of the world. The strict obedience to its own myth is what provided the ontological basis for the application of the scientific, mathematical method and thus for physics as a truly exact and "certain" science. Physics did not, as Goodheart wants for psychology, avoid tautology; it settled in a tautology (to explain nature from nature), allowing itself to be irrevocably enclosed by it and making the unknown of its root fantasy its very fundament.

If anything can be learned from physics for other fields of study, then this is not the mathematical method which is the exclusive property of physics' myth. Rather, it is the total dedication with which each field must bind itself religiously to its respective fantasy as its exclusive prima materia, i.e. as that which has "'everything it needs' within itself" and which therefore has to be kept free from any extraneous idea; it is the faith in its own tautology, its own petitio principii; and the courage to let itself fall into the unknown of its root fantasy without reserve. The imitation of physics' scientific method would do the very opposite of what physics itself does and teaches us: that the style of a field must be exclusively derived from its own a priori vision.

Returning from here to psychology, the concept of an autonomous psyche seems to me not only a question of personal preference, of one's ontology, of epistemological logic, theoretical and therapeutic valuableness, or empirical evidence. It, above all, seems to me a simple necessity. In order for psychology to be, it must posit an autonomous psyche, because only then is psychological inquiry possible in the first place. For only if the psyche is granted autonomy and spontaneity does psychology relentlessly bind itself to the unknownness of its own root fantasy, having to explain everything psychic "tautologically" from the psyche herself, and only if psychology strictly refuses to base itself on anything outside the idea of "psyche" (whatever "psyche" may be) will it be inescapably forced into the depth of its subject matter and be able to establish its own (psychological) version of exactitude and certainty. Denying the autonomous reality of the psyche would be abortive. It would mean to saw off the branch one is sitting on. It would mean a psychology divided against itself; a study of the soul deprived of its unknown and cut off from the anima; a broken commitment, since the name of our field, "psychology", has already committed us to the psyche as our unknown a priori and our self-contained prima materia, whether we admit it or not.
Any psychology taking for its fundament anything "known" ("ontologically present and complete" in the sense of having to be taken for granted and not itself subject to psychological questioning, i.e., reflection), be it Freud's bedrock of the biological or Goodheart's bi-personal field or whatever, will be fundamentalist and have unwittingly fallen into a "medieval" state of science (nature to be explained in terms of a factor, e.g., God, that by definition lies without the responsibility of the science in question). In this way, the door is systematically opened for uncontrolled projections. The repressed faith in the autonomous psyche is not simply gone; it is now experienced outside, in the power of conviction with which the bi-personal field, e.g., demands belief in itself as the actual cause of everything psychological. Precisely because psychology based itself on something "concrete," it has become arbitrary and dogmatic in Kant's sense: you now have your pick from so many primary causes: brain, birth trauma, reincarnation, the mother's breast, the bi¬personal field, etc. If the petitio principii or tautology as the bedrock on which any field of study must base itself is denied and avoided, it seems to return in this field of study as a logical fallacy and as the unrecognized problem of the infinite regress.

In this sense, psychology has no choice as to acknowledging or denying the autonomous psyche. A psychology that would deny it is "impossible." And yet, such a psychology is possible inasmuch as it does exist. In physics, any attempt to establish a science of nature denying the autonomy of nature would simply be laughed off. But in psychology it is possible to propose in all earnestness a study of psyche declaring the idea of the autonomous psyche as a reaction formation derived from the bi-personal field, and there will be many psychologists who will take such an attempt seriously. I think this fact cannot simply be dismissed, but must be understood. It seems to indicate a fundamental difference between physics and psychology, "nature" and "psyche." It cannot have been an intellectual need that gave rise to the psychology of the bi-personal field, since intellectually it is untenable and obsolete, as you have most convincingly shown. So it must stem from a psychological need, the autonomy of the psyche not being allowed to appear before the theoretical vision now exerting itself from behind in or as this act of psychological theorizing instead. This, however, suggests that it must be inherent in the nature of psyche that it can or even wants to turn against itself and produce neuroses not only in people, but also in psychology, theories about itself that deny its own autonomous reality. It must be compatible with the psyche to produce the incompatible, an insight which could give rise to further reflection.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

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rgh

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2007, 11:43:22 PM »
No doubt.  But I have derived my "person truth" from Jung . . . and that's all fine for me.  But I don't want to see Jung and the Jungian community as "free mints" I can snatch up to my hearts' content without even saying thanks.  I feel an obligation, from all I have received, to give something back.  But I am a pauper.  The best I have to give is criticism, my time, my mind, my voice.  Even if it isn't (and will never be) appreciated, even if it is openly despised . . . it's all I have.  So when I come to my moments of cynicism and wonder if Jungians are, like you say, "peddlers of paper reasons" (and I have my share of such moments), I eventually come around to the notion that, if I really do perceive an objectionable loss or lack in the Jungian community (and therefor feel such a lack is less apparent or objectionable in myself) . . . then who am I to criticize if I hoard this wealth to myself?  The Jungian community doesn't exist to serve me.  Ideally it should be serving Jungian psychology.  So, I feel that I am obliged to earn my intuitive-feeling grumbles by trying to address them constructively to Jungian psychology itself.  I feel I should endeavor to serve it.

Dear Matt,
After thirty years of initially following Jung's path into the wilderness of the mind and then taking my understandings and knowledge into the world - in much the same way as you are doing now - I cannot but wonder at the similarity of our notions and indeed our difficulties with the considerable mountain of nonsense which now attaches itself to Jungs work, both within understandings and also as attributions which should never have been made in the first place. In particular the loss of Jungs approach and his own understanding of psychology as a science is to me the most difficult thing to deal with.
But - to see Jungs psychology as an existent, as a "body of truth" which , say, like astrophysics, ought to be "served" is, whilst an admirable idea if it were so, unfortunately only a projection. For there is no Jungian body of scientific psychological understanding - just a host of individual interpretations - the majority of which are not much more than the personal psychology of those who express them.

What you see in Jung is what you realised from your own involvement and understanding - and whilst this may be an excellent vision of the path which ought to be taken, you must realise that the deconstruction of others arguments must lay upon a foundation far more solid than this - that if you wish to do something "for Jungian Psychology" then it must be to show the way towards placing it upon such a foundation - where it rests on the  bedrock of all other sciences.
It is not enough to argue psychology within an arena bounded by the limits of subjective ideas, whether they be your own or others. What is, IS, and springs from reality as it exists. No matter how we might allow the subjectivities of the mind to overwhelm this simple truth, we need to address the foundations of the psyche fearlessly - and not just within our ideational world, but within our personal experience - ie, at the raw level of awareness.
Deep questions need to be asked - and answered - in this area, questions which no-one seems willling to address without apriori assumptions which are often little more than buffers against despair.
Too many words are often written simply to maintain a faith, to reinforce belief. I think it is time to move beyond such things. It seems to me Jungian psychology is wrapped in a blanket of its own musings - while the truly fearless questions of Jung himself remain open and in many cases anathema to all who prefer to "hold a position" rather than face the truth of being.

Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2007, 01:20:25 PM »
Dear Matt,
After thirty years of initially following Jung's path into the wilderness of the mind and then taking my understandings and knowledge into the world - in much the same way as you are doing now - I cannot but wonder at the similarity of our notions and indeed our difficulties with the considerable mountain of nonsense which now attaches itself to Jungs work, both within understandings and also as attributions which should never have been made in the first place. In particular the loss of Jungs approach and his own understanding of psychology as a science is to me the most difficult thing to deal with.

Dear Robert,

I agree.  I would like to push Jungian psychology back toward a scientific foundation . . . as I see this as the only way to prevent it from becoming another occult mysticism or dogma (as a mysticism, Jungian psychology has nothing to add over older systems, but it does have a great deal to lose from mystification).  To me "science" means, most of all, that the object and field of study are not ossified, that they will always be growing and changing, and that the field must respond to ever-increasing data.  Jungian psychology has failed to do this, and the ramifications of this failure are increasingly apparent.

Even at the end of his life, Jung began to move his thinking into a more religious/metaphysical/less scientific area (and his followers and heirs have capitalized on this, as self-help and spiritual dogma have a better market than scientific rigor).  But I see Jung himself as a pioneer in what I call the "religion-science coniunctio".  He would not have embraced this goal, I suspect, but he set the foundation by demonstrating how the archetypes are the carriers of our spirituality while also being founded on biological instincts.  He didn't have the contemporary knowledge to realize how correct his intuition would be . . . but today, we have a better sense of evolutionary biology and neuroscience. 

Whereas Jung turned away from the religion-science coniunctio in frustration toward the end of his life to embrace a more mystical "knowing", we do not have to follow suit.  We have more data.  We have the capacity now to see that Jung's frustration with the conflict between "scientific rationalism" and spiritual "gnosis" was merely a product of his own (scientific) ignorance or lack of vision, or perhaps lack of libido for innovation in his later years.  In these final years of his life and work, Jung started writing in a way that was more good for Jung than for the field.  His work became more personalized.  He became less interested in attempting to make sense of something psychic and to "translate" it for other people, and instead pursued ideas, symbols, and texts in an attempt to derive a feeling or numen from them (his approach to alchemy in Mysterium Coniunctionis falls into this description . . . it's more of a "hit off the numen" of alchemy than a psychological translation and modern application of alchemy and its philosophical-psychological knowledge).

But the numen cannot be passed on to readers and followers in a scientific way, as a function of Logos.  It is not "linguafiable" . . . and so, couched in language, it becomes an obfuscation, allowing others to connect "Erotically" to Jung as a figure or archetype (a projection).  Jung's movement toward personalization encouraged his followers and fans to do likewise . . . but the problem was that they had not pursued the psyche scientifically for decades like Jung had.  They didn't fully realize the value of this "Logos work", this rigorous work of consciousness that allows us to differentiate ourselves from the Other-Self . . . not in defiance of it, but in order to work in better coordination with it.

To me, this is not only a scientific failing on the part of Jung's followers, but a moral one as well (and, of course, sensation and feeling are in the Jungian shadow, so this failure is hardly suprising), since the sacrifice of Logos is done for selfish, personalistic reasons.  The entire field of thought that is Jungian psychology (and its scientific potential), is thus sacrificed so that people can feel better about themselves personally, get a dose of spiritual satisfaction and buoying meaningfulness.  What these people seem not to realize is that there is a price for their greed: the demise of Jung's credibility as a thinker or scientist.

So when I say that I want to "give back" or serve Jungian psychology, I don't mean that I intend to become an apostle evangelizing for the prevailing Jungian dogma.  I mean that it is my desire to take a position of Jungian thinking that is un-selfish, non-personal.  To either embrace Jung's thinking for purely self-serving reasons or to reject it for equally self-serving reasons are, to me, equally "immoral" and irresponsible and unscientific approaches.  I have taken a great deal from Jung, specifically a language on which to found my intuitive understanding and experience of the psyche.  Without this, I would be destitute . . . so I am grateful.

But, in my opinion, the time to look to Jung as a provider has long since ended.  If there is something of universal value in Jung's thinking (as I think there is), then we who feel this value should do our best to preserve and develop it, extracting it from the ideas around it that simply "don't work" and transplanting it into new soil where it can grow and hopefully flourish.  If it is then non longer "Jungian psychology", so be it.  Jung himself (in one of his most lucid moments) recognized that "Jungianism" was for fools . . . that is, only the scientific pursuit, the real "gnosis", of his thinking (which was a contribution utterly unattached to the name "Jung") was worth carrying on into future pursuits of that gnosis.

It seems to me that not only would such an approach to Jung's thinking be intellectually sound, but it would have the added boon of actually showing personal respect to the memory of this man who wished his ideas to be used in precisely this way (i.e., to the degree that they proved useful to human, scientific understanding of the psyche).

But - to see Jungs psychology as an existent, as a "body of truth" which , say, like astrophysics, ought to be "served" is, whilst an admirable idea if it were so, unfortunately only a projection. For there is no Jungian body of scientific psychological understanding - just a host of individual interpretations - the majority of which are not much more than the personal psychology of those who express them.

The projection, I think, is the projection of numinousness onto the pursuit of science or gnosis.  But I don't feel we should fault ourselves for this, because the alternative is unconscious, irresponsible self-satisfaction (at the expense of everyone and everything else "not-me").  My personal dedication is primarily to this gnosis, and only to Jungian psychology insomuch as it proves to be a useful tool in the primary pursuit.  I have a secondary feeling of thankfulness (as described above) to Jung and his language . . . but I intend to repay that "karma" in what I feel is the most appropriate and responsible way: by pursuing gnosis to the best of my ability regardless of any affiliations or personal history.  I am only concerned (as a thinker) with understanding the psyche and humanness as thoroughly and accurately as possible.

What you see in Jung is what you realised from your own involvement and understanding - and whilst this may be an excellent vision of the path which ought to be taken, you must realise that the deconstruction of others arguments must lay upon a foundation far more solid than this - that if you wish to do something "for Jungian Psychology" then it must be to show the way towards placing it upon such a foundation - where it rests on the  bedrock of all other sciences.

I agree, but I see scientific worth in deconstructing certain arguments.  Yes, it's an academic, theatrical exercise . . . but it's not only this.  First of all, Giegerich is one of the very few "Jungian dissidents" writing today.  In this sense, he is saying to anyone who might be interested in things Jungians, "Here is a fork in the road.  Here is a different path to follow."  So the question needs to be asked, I think, "Should we or should we not follow this path?"  Where does this path actually lead?  Is there something of scientific or intellectual value in it, or is it a dead end?

Only in a "deconstruction" of that line of thinking can we truly extract what (if anything) is worth keeping in our pursuit of gnosis.  It is the same with Jung.  We have to analyze Jung's ideas, break them apart, try them on for size, and observe, test, study (in a scientific manner).  Then we take what holds up to the test and discard what doesn't.

Maybe Giegerich is a waste of my (and others') time . . . but his thinking is complex enough that we cannot entirely know this until we are able to understand it.  The argument, then, is my attempt to understand, test, weigh, and apply Giegerich's thinking to discern its value . . . even though, intuitively, I have serious doubts about his abstract rhetoric and foundational claim of necessary self-containment for the study of psychology.

Beyond this (and here there is even more theater), I have a rather pedantic (and probably rather arrogant) sub-intention in arguing with Giegerich's ideas.  Namely, I feel that Jungians (as Giegerich says . . . so here I strongly agree) are or have become incredibly lazy, mush-minded thinkers.  All that emphasis on the person, on the self-help angle has neutered Jungian thinking.  It appeals to me that Giegerich is able to see this and respond to it.  So I feel an urge to respond to him with as much logical rigor as I can muster . . . as if to say, "Jungian thinking doesn't have to be mushy to disagree with your reasoning."  But this is pedantic in that it is an underhanded chastisement of other Jungians who have not picked up the gauntlet Giegerich has thrown down to them.

That's why I mention chivalry above.  This is just a romantic, chivalric clash between two knights in the woods.  In the ritual battle (and only in this coniunctio, this intimacy) do we learn each other's "true names".  Perhaps this is silly, perhaps it's too "1980s Men's Movement" (or even "medieval") . . . but I see value in it.  The exchange of "masculinist/combative" ideas may be dry and tedious.  It may not solve any greater problems or even contribute one iota to universal knowledge.  But it can be a ritual in which Eros is conducted (as long as it is done with commitment to this Eros and with a chivalric sense of honor).  Jungian thinking has lost its Eros, its libido.  It is like the Fisher King now, suffering on the shore with its Amfortas Wound.  Some romantic Fool needs to come along (in any of us who want to jump-start the Jungian Logos) to both recognize and correct this.  "The land and the king are one," in essence . . . where here the "land" is Jungian thinking, and the "king" is our problem with personalizing and projecting onto Jung something archetypal, whereby we usurp his true (scientific) potency.

So I also admire Giegerich for his interest in the ritual of debate and his awareness of the Eros behind ideas.  That is really the problem with Jungians and their abandonment of scientific thinking.  It isn't "rationalism" that they lack, but an Eros for thinking that drives thought into action, into precision, into effectiveness.  So, like my friends, Roger Faglin and Remo Roth, I see a problem with Jungian Logos . . . but unlike them, I see the problem as a lack of Erotic engagement of Logos, not so much as a dominance of Logos in the Jungian mindset.  Yes, Jungian Logos is "sick," but it needs to get well, not die.  It is sick, because we Jungians have been selfish and greedy.  We lack honor.

So I agree with you completely when you say:
It is not enough to argue psychology within an arena bounded by the limits of subjective ideas, whether they be your own or others. What is, IS, and springs from reality as it exists. No matter how we might allow the subjectivities of the mind to overwhelm this simple truth, we need to address the foundations of the psyche fearlessly - and not just within our ideational world, but within our personal experience - ie, at the raw level of awareness.

It seems to me Jungian psychology is wrapped in a blanket of its own musings - while the truly fearless questions of Jung himself remain open and in many cases anathema to all who prefer to "hold a position" rather than face the truth of being.

I agree.  Let's bring these questions to the floor.  Maybe we will fail to do anything of worth with them.  But let's try. 

I have been trying to bring the questions out that I see as "dangerous, but essential" . . . but these are only my opinions.  I am hoping that everyone willing to participate here will bring in these questions.  Even if we make no headway on them, at least bringing them to light is in itself worthwhile . . . and may perhaps even be a "scientific" contribution.

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

tipothecap

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 10:38:41 PM »
Hello, wrestlers with Giegerich.

I must admit, I haven't followed your whole sweaty battle -- I only just yesterday found your site, and there's always so much to read on these boards!

I have been a great admirer of Giegerich's for years now, coming to his work through Hilllman and Spring Journal. I'm certainly not uncritical, but it would be fair to say I weigh in on his side more often than not.

I just wanted to drop by briefly, to share this one quote you may or may not know, which to my mind goes right to the heart of his position on this question of outside Archimedean points, objectivity, etc.:

"Psychology must build its house on sand, and only then can it hope to produce the incorruptible in the sense of alchemy. Such are the perverse ways of psychology. It must reflect itself in a wilderness of mirrors, because in the upside-down world of the psyche, it is the mirrors that produce for the first time the object to be mirrored between them." ["Jungian Psychology: A Baseless Enterprise", p. 102]

Call me any names you want: mystic, obscuritanist -- I don't think you'd be right (though right now I couldn't even begin to defend myself or explain why), but it would sure be understandable. And yet I can't help but be utterly convinced by Giegerich's crazy proposition. I'm not in any way against the study of the brain, but Giegerich here makes complete sense to me, and I still get a rush of excitement reading those words, which to me express a deep truth which the study of the brain, however advanced, does not even touch.

Well, thanks for the forum. I'm always happy to stumble across a good, sweaty rumble.

tipothecap

Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 02:56:39 PM »
I just wanted to drop by briefly, to share this one quote you may or may not know, which to my mind goes right to the heart of his position on this question of outside Archimedean points, objectivity, etc.:

"Psychology must build its house on sand, and only then can it hope to produce the incorruptible in the sense of alchemy. Such are the perverse ways of psychology. It must reflect itself in a wilderness of mirrors, because in the upside-down world of the psyche, it is the mirrors that produce for the first time the object to be mirrored between them." ["Jungian Psychology: A Baseless Enterprise", p. 102]

Call me any names you want: mystic, obscuritanist -- I don't think you'd be right (though right now I couldn't even begin to defend myself or explain why), but it would sure be understandable. And yet I can't help but be utterly convinced by Giegerich's crazy proposition. I'm not in any way against the study of the brain, but Giegerich here makes complete sense to me, and I still get a rush of excitement reading those words, which to me express a deep truth which the study of the brain, however advanced, does not even touch.

Dear tipothecap,

You mystic, you obscurantist!  (-)smgfool(-) 

I really think Giegerich's idea does make a lot of sense and should be considered (and analyzed) very seriously.  I just ultimately disagree with him (and in that, only partially).  I feel it's necessary, when evaluating Giegerich's idea, to try to intuitively construct the ramifications that might result from an actualization of that idea.  I.e., what if Giegerich had his way and psychology gave up its biological/neurological associations and interests?

So we would have differentiated two fields (neuroscience and psychology) in such a way that they were not allowed to overlap.  For psychology, this would lead to an occultization.  It would become more like philosophy or metaphysics.  "Psychologists" would move in the same esoteric direction that poststructuralist philosophy has moved . . . except it would be worse, because depth psychology is already a non-academic subject.  This would hand psychology over entirely to a tiny elite of hermetic occultists.  That is, it would be an elitist movement.

As we can see with poststructuralist philosophies, the movement away from the language of sense-making (based on the notion that you are trying to make a more universal appeal to your audience of others) is a movement toward a language of esoteric obscurantism.  In such obscurantist language there is a devaluation of the other.  It is effectively a way of saying, "No, I am not speaking to you . . . but only to my fellows over here. You can go away."  Those deemed worthy of communication (who are always the ones "most like Me") become the ones who are willing to abide by the same codes and dogmas as the speaker/writer.  This rapidly develops into a kind of elitist, intellectual tribalism.

I'm not sure if Giegerich recognizes this inevitability (and its precedent in academia) when he prescribes the jettisoning of the Archimedean point outside the psyche or how he feels about intellectualist tribalism in general.  But tribalism of any kind is a form of unconsciousness . . . and also a form of segregation that holds an Us and Them attitude toward anything not sanctioned by the totemic animism of the tribe.  How does Giegerich expect a dismissal of "outsideness" to encourage healthy development within this new tribal field of psychology?  There is no precedent for this anywhere.  The value of human ideas has always been eclectic and evolutionary (sort of like memes).  All our thinking is built on previous ideas and understanding (and the fact that we divide up our acquisition of knowledge into fields is often highly arbitrary, a convenience for our limited working memories).  This is not only a natural memetic/evolutionary process, it is the foundational principle of the scientific method.

In essence, ideas that seem to have applications and demonstrate effectiveness are kept (and refined) while ideas that are disproved or don't work tend to be discarded.  This process is only inhibited by our belief systems, which will hold onto dogmatic ideas because they help formulate a tribal identity for members of the group that believes in them.  When tribalist dogmas are overthrown (always with great, often revolutionary effort) it is always from outside . . . or from an insider who has become Other to the tribe, an apostate.

I worry that Giegerich's prescription for psychology would lead only to this tribalistic unconsciousness and the formulation of a new dogma that could never be questioned or criticized because it has no outsideness, no Archimedean point.  Currently, of course, this seems moot or at least very abstract, because Giegerich has set himself up as an antagonist to the power structure, a voice crying in the wilderness.  I sympathize with this personal positioning, but we have to recognize that it activates an archetypal paradigm.  He is already Us vs. Themming.  Giegerich is (or is trying to be) himself an Archimedean point for contemporary Jungian psychology while at the same time condemning that psychology for adhering to another Archimedean point.  It is a kind of hypocrisy, seen this way.

Depth psychology today is a field that sits uneasily between biology and philosophy or religion, suffering (as Giegerich rightfully recognizes) from a schizophrenic personality.  Giegerich is effectively saying, "If you elect me as your leader, I will stage a coup and take the faithful away from this conflict of Opposites and into a Promised Land."  No conflict, that sounds nice . . . but by charging toward a polarity, one can never free oneself permanently from the conflict of opposites.  The Opposites must be alchemized.  The Other must be incorporated into the self and the self into the Other.  Even as Giegerich upholds certain alchemical principles, he discards its core principle when he rejects that value of an Archimedean point or relationship with otherness (the alchemists had chemistry . . . and it was an effective model, because chemicals behaved like all other natural, material processes . . . for instance, psychological ones).

Aside from this, when we look at the fields of evolutionary biology and neuroscience, what do we see?  These fields have been going through a revolutionary emergence.  The more they've discovered about the brain and human behavior, the more they have demonstrated that our behaviors and beliefs have clear biological foundations.  But these fields are still very young.  It is entirely expectable for them to continue discovering more and more (or clearer and clearer) connections between biology and psyche.  Any attempt to pull the plug on these ever increasing connections seems, to me, reactionary and defensive.  It is akin to religious fundamentalisms like "intelligent design".  We have always feared that we are animals, that we are beholden to our biology . . . and every innovator who has tried to introduce such ideas to us has been vigorously resisted.

This is why Giegerich's notions (although they are obviously much more complex than the analogy) strike me as a kind of return to an egoic Eden, where the Adam-ego can live in blissful ignorance . . . no serpent-other, no temptation, nothing but naked, childlike frolicking and naming and renaming all the animals.

The entire notion that there is a clear, perhaps even material, divide between psyche and biology is a product of egoism.  That is, the mind/body split is a perceived (abstracted) split that doesn't really exist.  It is only (from the perspective of human consciousness) as-if it exists.  Our human hubris and sense of speciesist superiority is founded on this illusion of perception.  There is no clear indication that any such divide really exists . . . only our voraciousness to believe in such a division compels us to literalize our as-if perspective.

Our psychology is founded on the Archimedean point of the Self-as-Other.  It is only through the differentiation of ego and Self that we are able to become conscious and construct a sense of ethical responsibility to others.  Our civilizations and cultures are founded on self/other cooperation.

I can only agree with Giegerich in a very abstract sense.  We can never truly know or be the Other.  We are only able to approximate it/them from our ego-perspectives.  And this is simply the nature of ego, the nature of a fixed sense of self.  It is always reflected, abstracted, as-if.  It is never the thing itself.  But in order for it to grow, learn, understand, and even survive, it has to construct a projection based on its perception of others, Others, and Archimedean points . . . and learn how to interact with these things and others in such a way as to not offend or damage them (and they will tell us when we do).

So it is true that anything that comes through the ego-perspective is not verifiable or "True".  The ego cannot tell us what something is, only what it is like or how it is like us or what we are able to relate it to abstractly, through projection.  But ego-psychology cannot turn away from its fascination with and commitment to outsideness.  The devaluation of outsideness or otherness is simply narcissism.  And when you devalue the other, the other will usually retaliate.

Therefore I agree with Giegerich that psychology as a field must build its house on sand.  It must always be aware of the egoic fallacy (in a way that religion and philosophy find avoidable, as they are beholden to nothing but imagination), that what it perceives about itself is always a kind of fiction, an approximation of some "reality" it can never obtain.  But the commitment to that approximation (by establishing Archimedean points) is the way psychology generates its ethics and integrity as an attempt to know and to generate knowledge.  Without the devotion to outsideness, there are only the mirrors within mirrors of detached egoism, untethered, uninhibited abstraction.  If we (as egos) want to see beyond this narcissistic reflectivity, we have to strive for something outside . . . and as we do, that outside (in the form of the biological Self) reaches toward us as well.

The veil between ego and Self cannot be lifted (without obliterating the ego), but this doesn't mean there is no Other or no value in pursuing the Other.

The value of biology to psychology comes primarily in biology's ability to model natural processes, understand biological instincts.  We can see in our as-ifs, our fictionalizations of relationship with the unconscious, the biological Self, that these fictions follow (albeit symbolically) the same kinds of natural, instinctual, biological patterns we see in material nature.  We even come to understand ourselves better through the recognition that our unconscious psyche's manifest this material, biological naturalism (again, through symbols).  That is, we recognize these biological patterns in our symbols, because the natural world is logical . . . or what we call logical is based on our observation of the natural world, its order and principles.

In essence, wherever we see this logic, or Logos, we see nature, biology, matter.  And we see logic (as even Giegerich admits) everywhere throughout the psyche, albeit writ symbolically, personified, anthropomorphized, related to ego, as-if.  We perceive only the narrative of logic, the impact of Logos on the ego . . . but it is still Logos, still nature behind the veil.  We can only study psyche insomuch as it behaves logically . . . i.e., like matter.  Otherwise, there is no basis on which to understand it (i.e., be conscious of what it is).  Without that consciousness (that differentiates, but requires, self and other), there is only participation mystique, tribal, totemic, unconsciousness, an ignorance of our instincts, and a relinquishment of our humanity (which is itself defined for us by our sense of consciousness, our ego/Self dynamic).

I'm not in any way against the study of the brain, but Giegerich here makes complete sense to me, and I still get a rush of excitement reading those words, which to me express a deep truth which the study of the brain, however advanced, does not even touch.

We have to be careful, I think, of falling into a false dichotomy.  Neuroscience need not be the opposite of psychology . . . and any claim that it is is based on egoic ideologies that wish to segregate and vanquish what is not yet understood (or what doesn't fit with the prevailing ideology of the tribe).  I am not advocating an enantiodromia (i.e., that psychology should martyrously sacrifice itself to the big bad wolf of neuroscience, confessing its sins before it is consigned to oblivion).  Neuroscience is not a salvation for psychology . . . if anything, depth psychology holds some important answers for neuroscience.

I merely believe that neuroscience and psychology have a point of convergence and need not be set up as conflicted Opposites.  The only divide between the two I see is an ideological, prejudicial one.  The brain and the psyche are the same thing on some level . . . but prevailing prejudices in both fields prevent the members of either tribe from recognizing the connection.

As intuitive thinkers (as opposed to materialistic researchers), the psychologists should be able to come to this understanding before the neurosceintists.  And yet, it is the neuroscientists or cognitive scientists that are charging forward toward this coniunctio while the depth psychologists have become fixated on their own navels.  I think it would be shameful (for psychologists) if they fail to formulate an effective bio-psychological model before the materialist researchers.  We would have only our own raging narcissism to blame . . . and it is that narcissism and solipsism that is most likely to destroy this entire field and all it has to offer.

I think we are being childish.  Our psychologistic perspectives have kept us from growing up.  Giegerich's diagnosis is right, psychology has a neurosis.  I simply think his prescription is a bit off.

-Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

tipothecap

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 07:47:41 PM »
Dear Matt:

You are honestly wrestling with this material, and I am always glad to see that happening because I believe so strongly in Giegerich's work. So I'm not trying to bluster away and shout "You don't understand Giegerich!", as if I do -- but I can't help but feel that you don't really understand Giegerich. Before formulating too strong a position, I'd suggest you wrestle with more of his writing, if you're so inclined -- like the first volume of collected papers or the papers from the El Capitan seminar, both recently published by Spring. Because his is a VERY different way of thinking than we are used to, and very difficult to get a handle on, never mind paraphrasing. I've gotten into a number of online arguments with people who took issue with something they felt quite sure he was saying, for example that because he talks of "logic" (his book title: The Soul's Logical Life) he must be espousing rationalism (i.e., our conventional notion of logic), and I've tried to explain that no, this is precisely not what he's saying (although our usual methods of understanding sure make it seem that way, and he himself often doesn't make it easy).

Giegerich's point is not to set up some Opposite (psyche) to body or brain or matter. For brain and body and matter, taken this way, are positivities, and in Giegerich's view true psychology runs counter to ALL positivity; it is the activity (and with time, the practice) of negativity, negativization -- the emptying out, the undermining of positivity. ("Negative" and "positive" here are not value judgments -- i.e., negative doesn't mean bad and positive, good -- but ways of thinking about things.) It is indeed a "mental" activity, an advance of consciousness (in the fullest sense of the word), and in this sense authentically related to philosophy and spiritual pursuits. If it reaches a small minority of people, it is not because others cannot by definition (or should not by elitism) be reached by it. It is in theory accessible to anyone, but not everyone is ready to face the challenge to ordinary consciousness that it represents. It is too disorienting, too disturbing for most people. But it needn't be this way -- it simply is, right now, because our time is characterized by a thoroughly positivistic frame of mind.

When we take something as "positive" in the sense that you speak of body or brain or matter, we take it as if it just "is", as if it weren't part of the dream that we are living but some objective reality "outside" the dream -- hence the use of these things as Archimedean points, intended to give us some objective footing, to ground us. But as Hillman says, psychology should rather return the world to the dream, should see everything as if it were a dream. Why? Not because things aren't real, or because we are disconnected from reality, but because all human activity exists within the "field" of psyche; everything human is psychological. So no matter what positivity we are concerned with, psychology's job is to point out what it means to us, what part it plays in the dream we are living. In this view, it is psyche that directs or allows us to become fascinated with brain or body or matter (or childhood or society or what have you), psyche that stirs with passionate interest in this or that "positive" reality, psyche that guides the mind and hand to devise experiments, psyche that is fascinated by the world in which it finds (and makes) itself. It's absolutely not that this world doesn't exist, or isn't important, or is to be disregarded. But psychology as a practice must, to be true to itself, take a step further than interest in empirical reality; it must seek to understanding the reasons for its own interests. It must try to grasp what it, psyche, wants from these objects of its attention. In Jungian terminology, psyche projects itself onto the empirical, positive world, and it is only by withdrawing these projections that it can begin to understand itself. Giegerich would be more radical and say that it's not a matter of withdrawing the projections so much as following them, because in projecting onto this or that empirical reality, psyche knows better than "we" do what it needs, what is important to its development. Psyche is always ahead of our understanding of it, and we must catch up. In this sense, our current scientific focus on the brain, for example, is of extreme importance not just for its own sake (which isn't to be denied), but because it tells us about the state of the soul at this time: it tells us about the soul's way of thinking, if you will, about the places soul looks to for its self-understanding. But in order to benefit from this meta level of understanding, this insight into the soul's very interest in the brain, say, we need to move beyond the positive. It's the same with pathologies: they herald some vital understanding that we can either ignore and "cure", or that we can attend to and "be cured by". As Jung said, in our neurosis is our best friend. But "to be cured" nevertheless means moving (first into and then) through or beyond the neurosis.

Indeed, this underminding of positivity is Jung's great insight and challenge: as he put it, only in psychology is the object of study also the subject doing the studying. By bending its gaze back upon itself, psychology proper -- true psychology -- comes into its own, comes into being.

Of course, conditions can be alleviated, problems can be addressed, people can be helped through all kinds of things other than "true psychology" in this sense. Behaviour modification, psychotropic medication, neurophysiological intervention all may yield important results, may indeed save lives, and I'm sure Giegerich wouldn't begrudge anyone a lifesaving gesture of this sort. But in terms of comprehending the psyche, of understanding its why and wherefores, none of these can ultimately help, no matter what they tell us about empirical reality. And therefore they can only be partial responses -- the way heart surgery might save a life, but understanding, on the deepest level, may be needed to change this life (people after heart surgery often experience fundamental changes of priority and begin attending to the "really real" heart -- i.e, the psychological, metaphorical, imaginal, poetic heart -- and not merely the empirically, objectively, positively real heart).

I don't know if this makes anything clearer. Again, I believe that the best thing is to read more Giegerich. It is indeed a disorienting journey, but I personally have found it thrilling and transforming, leaving nothing quite the same as before. It does not in any way preclude interest in or study of anything, of any positive reality; it merely (!) demands that, in order to be psychological, one learn to "see" (really, to think) beyond the positive, to see (to think) by way of the "negative".

Best,
Michael "tipothecap"

tipothecap

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich ... PS
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 01:22:38 AM »
Hi again, Matt. Okay, I got my last post posted and off my chest. (And please don't take any of it personally -- writing on the net always brings out my blustery side. First I say "it's not as if I understand Giegerich", then again and again write "what Giegerich means is ..."! I suppose I do think I have some sense of what's he's getting at, though, and really only want to promote it as valuable). Then I went back and re-read parts of your previous post. I feel I missed part of your argument, and it got me thinking. You wrote:

The value of biology to psychology comes primarily in biology's ability to model natural processes, understand biological instincts.  We can see in our as-ifs, our fictionalizations of relationship with the unconscious, the biological Self, that these fictions follow (albeit symbolically) the same kinds of natural, instinctual, biological patterns we see in material nature.  We even come to understand ourselves better through the recognition that our unconscious psyche's manifest this material, biological naturalism (again, through symbols).  That is, we recognize these biological patterns in our symbols, because the natural world is logical . . . or what we call logical is based on our observation of the natural world, its order and principles.

In essence, wherever we see this logic, or Logos, we see nature, biology, matter.  And we see logic (as even Giegerich admits) everywhere throughout the psyche, albeit writ symbolically, personified, anthropomorphized, related to ego, as-if.  We perceive only the narrative of logic, the impact of Logos on the ego . . . but it is still Logos, still nature behind the veil.  We can only study psyche insomuch as it behaves logically . . . i.e., like matter.  Otherwise, there is no basis on which to understand it (i.e., be conscious of what it is).  Without that consciousness (that differentiates, but requires, self and other), there is only participation mystique, tribal, totemic, unconsciousness, an ignorance of our instincts, and a relinquishment of our humanity (which is itself defined for us by our sense of consciousness, our ego/Self dynamic).

This part, specifically: "We perceive only the narrative of logic, the impact of Logos on the ego . . . but it is still Logos, still nature behind the veil.  We can only study psyche insomuch as it behaves logically . . . i.e., like matter."

I agree: we study nature and apply this insight to soul, or perhaps study nature and find (or create) the same sorts of forms and processes "in" the soul. But are we limited to the forms and processes of positive nature? In fact, isn't limiting ourselves to the forms and processes of nature for models of psyche -- however apt and essential these might otherwise be -- not setting up a huge (indeed, fundamental) blind spot, as psyche itself is contra naturam, a work against "nature", against the given?

As Hillman so often points out, psyche is related to death and the underworld, and to imagination's deformations of the materially given, and to dreams. The fact that most needs to be examined at this point is not that psychic process follow similar patterns to those of nature, though they may; nor even that as we learn more of nature, whether in breadth or depth, psychic processes transform accordingly, though they do; but the fact that psyche "exists" at all! Because it is -- its very "nature" is to be -- un-natural. Its province isn't limited by the natural but stretches beyond to the "supernatural" (i.e., its interest in the paranormal, the occult, the spiritual); it twists the natural given, creating unnatural dream logics that precisely do not follow the laws of nature, and that derive their sense from their opposition to these laws; and it abstracts in both simplistic and profound ways, existing in part in this realm of metaphors, ideals, ethics, universals that "exist" nowhere in reality, but only in the mind.

This isn't a matter of "us vs them", but of differentiating the object of study of different practices. The object of physics is physical reality, the object of chemistry is chemicals, of neurology, the brain, etc. The object of psychology is psyche, and psyche is other than ALL and ANY positive reality. This is precisely why it can take up any and all positive reality as its model: because it is none of these. It tries to explain itself by means of these things, but it misses itself in the act. (Because it is not a thing at all, unlike all those other, actual things!)

If chemistry can contribute its specific expertise, and neuroscience its, what does psychology contribute? Yes, it contributes many models of psyche which can reveal (or create) psychic reality, based on its experiences of positive reality. But unless it addresses the "what" of psychic reality itself -- the bizarre, subversive, certainty-undermining, negativizing, relativizing, consciousness-transforming power of this inescapable reality which is our lot -- it will never contribute its true and greatest gift/challenge.

You are defining logic naturalistically as "behaving like matter", as following material nature. But it is psyche's logic, this truly psycho-logic, that needs to be defined -- and this logic is exactly what is not covered by a naturalistic definition. Until, that is, "nature" itself becomes redefined so as to include this supremely unnatural function -- and then we'll be getting somewhere!

Bed time ... !!
G'night,
Michael

Kafiri

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich ... PS
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2007, 02:01:25 PM »
Quote from: tipothecap

You are defining logic naturalistically as "behaving like matter", as following material nature. But it is psyche's logic, this truly psycho-logic, that needs to be defined -- and this logic is exactly what is not covered by a naturalistic definition. Until, that is, "nature" itself becomes redefined so as to include this supremely unnatural function -- and then we'll be getting somewhere!

Bed time ... !!
G'night,
Michael


IMO Michael has defined  a very critical issue for those of us who study Jung and find relevance to our own existence in his writings.  And, at the same time Michael gives some understanding of why I should study Geigerich in spite the difficulty reading him.  It all seems to revolve around our 2000 plus year ingrained(dare I say archetypal?) preference for logical, linear, rational, scientific thinking. It is no mere coincidence that depth psychology and quantum mechanics came to consciousness around the same time.  They both are based on and require a departure from from straight-line, linear thinking and analysis.  Jung's quest, as Michael points out, is to demonstrate that the linear, scientific thinking cannot explain the "experience" of quantum mechanics, just as the same linear, scientific thinking cannot explain the "experience" of the psyche.  In both cases new methods of analysis must be developed to explain what we experience. And it is upon this method that I need to study writers like Geigerich to see if his explantions(building on a firm Jungian fondation) correlate to my experience.  I include a rather lengthy quote from Erich Neumann's essay "The Meaning of the Earth Archetype, found in The Fear of the Feminine, And Other Essays On Feminine Psychology. This quote from Neumann exposes the flaw when we attempt to discover the "laws of the spirit in matter."  If I am reading Neumann correctly, he is saying that we must look for and discover, as best we can, the laws that govern the psyche, without the assistance of what we know of the laws of matter.  This is the basis for Jung's "science."  I apologize for the length.

Quote
Here we come to the other indication of what "Earth Spirit" means and this is connected as closely as possible with what has just been said, but is probably easier to understand. Here the issue is that we are only having experience with the help of the psyche. This psyche has its effect and appears in archetypes, that is, in natural symbols, which determine our consciousness and our overall conception of the world.

However, the natural symbol, without our being sufficiently conscious of the fact,  is identical with the reality of the world that appears to us, for every object in the natural world is at the same time a symbolic reality to us. The psyche certainly does not use an "object" of nature as a "symbol," but rather the experience of an "object" itself is always already symbolic experience. The star or tree in us is no less real and no less symbolic than it is in outward experience. For each possibility of experience either presupposes a spiritually forming, that is to say a symbolic activity, or is identical with this. That is, everything spiritual appears to us first not just in nature but as nature; or we could formulate this just as well the other way around: everything natural, whether outward or inward, appears to us as an image, that is to say as formed spirit. We are surrounded by images, inwardly and outwardly, but at the same time formed and determined in all our experiences by the natural symbol as though by a unitary natural-spiritual reality, for our psychic system only grasps that which appears to us as the real world through the world of natural symbolism.

The conceptual world of science is a world of abstraction. In reality, however, it too is only a distillation of what is primordially given in the natural symbol. What we encounter in science at the one end, so to speak, externally as an object, we encounter at the other end, inwardly in the psyche, as the numinous. Even here, any statement about the numinous, if it wants to eschew the natural symbolism in which it is primarily rooted, is a desperate attempt to abstract, that is, an ultimately vain effort to escape from myth and symbol. For at the moment when living experience occurs, it is an experience of the formative psyche.

For this reason, the image as a natural symbol always refers to an "object" of nature that was worshipped as numinous, be it mineral, vegetable, or animal, water or lightning, sun or moon, or something comprehensive such as heaven or earth. The spiritual and symbolic is identical with all this that is given in nature. But this elemental correlation, which as a correspondence between above and below and as the signature of things played a significant role both in antiquity and in medieval thought, becomes a decisive experience only for modern man. Everything that we experience from the image in perception to the. inner image, from visible chair to vision of the divine, is forming and formed spirit-psyche. In this sense, if we analyze our experience, there is no matter -for-us, the inorganic and the organic, the ostensibly dead things of physics, just as much as the sensuous, mental unity of the organic and the psychic, are a unity in which the physical spirit is at once visible and invisible.

Humanity is approaching total reality from different directions. Scientifically, it tries to find the laws of the spirit "in" matter-but are the force fields and planes of that which man has called matter spirit or nature? Is the mathematical formula adequate or inadequate? And is not only the unity of what appears as real with what is mathematically conceived the true "spiritual nature" in entirely the sense that Goethe said, "Whoever deals with the Spirit must presuppose nature and whoever speaks of nature must presuppose the Spirit or else silently imply them"?  An approach to the unified world of the real is believed not only in science, but just as much in the worship of it as numinosum in religion, in the configurations of art, and most of all in the unconscious association of every person with the mundane world itself, with its phenomena and with its things.

If we are enveloped in images, we are also enveloped in forms, in spirit, which is nature, and in nature, which is spirit. Daily and continually we associate with this unified world of nature and spirit without knowing it. But only the person to whom this association has become clear understands what is meant when we talk of Sophia as a heightened and spiritualized earth. But this formulation is already distorted as well. The earth has not changed at all, it is neither heightened and spiritualized: it remains what is always was and has only become, along with the earth, more transparent to himself in his own total reality.

Here also we must differentiate between the reality of our total existence and the differentiating formulations of our consciousness. Certainly, our consciousness makes the attempt to separate a spiritual from a natural world and to set them in opposition, but this mythical division and opposition of heaven and earth proves more and more impracticable. If, in the process of integration, consciousness allies itself with the contents of the unconscious and the mutual interpenetration of both systems leads to a transformation of the personality, a return to the primordial symbolism of the myth ensues. Above and below, heaven and earth, spirit and nature, are experienced again as coniunctio, and the calabash that contains them is the totality of reality itself.

27. In his Philosophy of Symbolic Forms, E. Cassirer has described the emergence of consciousness from pthpsychoiogical treatment of this theme without question would, in a certain sense, have had to go further than his findings-and deeper; it would, nevertheless, have to refer to him in many respects. (See above, essay 2, n. 23.)

28.  Neumann, "The Mythical World and the Individual," tr. R. T. Jacobson, Quadrant 14 (fall 1981). [Orig., EJ 1949, and in U. d. M., vol. I.]

29.  As cited by Paul Schmitt, "Natur und Geist in Goethes Verhaltnis zu den Naturwissenschaften," EJ 1946.


"We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves."
      -Eric Hoffer

Matt Koeske

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2007, 05:31:31 PM »
Dear Michael and Kafiri,

A very interesting conversation!  I've been trying to scrape together the necessary time to respond, but have had a few other things to finish up first.  And, regrettably, I still haven't found enough time (and my weekends rarely afford me any).  But I have been champing at the bit, so I will just say a few things now and try to come back with more details as soon as I can.  Hopefully a "quick shot" like this won't muddy things.  Fingers crossed.

In the first of Michael's last two posts, he gives us an excellent explanation of Giegerich's thinking . . . but as I was reading it, I was thinking, "Yes, yes . . . I have derived exactly the same notion of Giegerich's thinking.  I simply don't agree with it."  I mean, not entirely.  I spent a great deal of time in this thread above explaining where I do and do not agree with Giegerich's thinking and why.  But Michael picked up on this and reoriented his argument.  And with Kafiri also choosing to respond to the same statement of mine, I can see that this is where the kernel lies.

I think that we are flying around each other with different languages for the most part.  I get the feeling that you are both taking a different meaning from my statement then I intended it to express.  But at the same time, I am having difficulty with the way Neumann addresses this issue.  Some of his language is hard for me to follow.  I read many of the sentences over and over again, by they dissolved in abstraction to me.

So the best I can do to reenter the arena of thought here is to take up my little blocks of wood and try to reformulate my own position (as I cannot find my way inside the language and thought of either Neumann or Giegerich).  I apologize for my thick-headedness, but this is the only way I can learn  (-)smblsh(-).

In one of the Giegerich quotes I posted above, he wrote: 
Quote
How can an arche-typon, a primordial image, have a genetic or historical aspect? Jung terms the archetypes "categories of the imagination," or also "divine figures." That a category could in itself have a historical aspect is a contradictio in se.

He is actually arguing against Neumann here (just to make everything more confusing!  (-)titanic(-)) . . . but I think he is (like Neumann) characterizing the archetypes as "primordial images" or "natural symbols" (as Neumann calls them in the quote above).  I believe one of the problems here, as far as my initial statement that we can only study psyche insomuch as it behaves like matter goes, is that I entirely and fundamentally disagree with this conception of the archetypes as it is described here by Neumann and Giegerich.

I do not see the archetypes as "divine images" or "categories of the imagination" or primordial "natural symbols", and I can see no scientific or rational basis on which to make such a conclusion.  By which I mean, when we leap to saying archetypes are like divine images, natural symbols, etc., we have left science and rationalism and moved into what is in effect "poetry".  So here I agree with all of you (present and remote) that such "psychology" demands this poetic "as-if" to perceive itself.  But, for me, these as-if categories (which are largely personified) are archetypal images . . . NOT archetypes themselves.  Archetypes are not images.  The ego's perception of archetypes "imagines" them into figures, figures that are as like the ego as possible.  That is, the ego (as is its nature) projects itself onto the archetypes, and understands them only to the degree that it can see itself in them.  It is the same form of anthropomorphism that the egoic perspective lends to everything.  This is simply how we understand things . . . i.e., in relation to ourselves.

My gripe with Giegerich's notion of psychology as a "self-contained" field can be illustrated in this issue.  My fear is that Giegerich is too willing to settle for the as-if of the egoic perspective (what he calls "psyche", I call "ego") . . . the story of the ego.  But I see this story (as we have learned increasingly from modern biology) as not entirely reliable.  Yes, it's interesting, a fascinating object of study . . . but it doesn't tell us all we need to know or are able to understand about our consciousness.

To me, Giegerich's self-contained psychology approaches and resembles asking a true believer what God is.  Do this, and we get only the ego's perspective, which tells us what that notion of God means to that ego, how that ego sees God in itself, how much that ego can relate to the idea of God.  This makes for lovely fiction, and there is value gathering up these "psychic phenomena" of ego-perspectives and finding how much they resemble one another, forming (as Jung liked to do) a taxonomy of such phenomena.  As that taxonomy gathers more and more data, we can start to see the "typicalities" of these fictions and sort them into abstract categories.  With these categories that differentiate the data, we can then begin to investigate why such typicalities form.

A strong preliminary hypothesis is that these archetypal images show categorical consistency because they reflect typical human experiences, experiences that seem to be "writ in the human soul", i.e., they are unconscious, they compel us autonomously, and they have great power over our thought and behavior.  They are numinous.  In their presence, we feel profound "influence" or "presence" that seems Other to us.  Fascinating!  So we look deeper still.

We start to recognize that these archetypal images cluster around human emotions that have to do with rites of passage: birth, puberty, leaving the nest, fighting our opponents, finding a mate, having and raising children, dying, death, etc.  Well, son of a goat!  How about that?  We know something else from our body of human knowledge that is exactly, exactly like that!  Instincts.  So what do we have here with these archetypal images?  It looks like we have the perception and creative dramatization (in myth and so forth) of our human instincts.

This seems to me the most logical hypothesis.  And this is the same hypothesis that Jung came up with.  Maybe he muddled it by sometimes talking about archetypal images as though they were the same things as the archetypes/instincts themselves (although he certainly differentiated this on some occasions), but he was pretty clear about the archetypes being instincts.

I think its time to simply sweep away the muddle that mystifies the archetypes.  They are human instincts.  Period.  The majority of the complexity and confusion surrounding archetypes comes from understanding them from an egoic perspective, as stories and characters and gods and mystical forces.  But these approaches say nothing of value about what archetypes really are.  They only illustrate our many emotional and intellectual reactions to them, to these instincts that so powerfully compel us.  But, without biology and its model (and ability to observe instincts in animals and comprehend the logic of why such instincts would have evolved), we would be drowning in our own egoic maya.

Biology is the necessary Archimedean point that orients us and allows us to have a clearer understanding of what archetypes are.  Understanding the archetypes as biological instincts that evolved or were "naturally selected" because they proved useful, becomes an immense help in cutting through the egoic illusions and delusions surrounding our archetypal experiences.  If we didn't already understand that the egoic perspective is a narrative fiction that is generally unreliable for telling us what things actually are, we can now apply the abstract model from this lesson borrowed from biology.  That is, we know that on one hand we experience an archetype, let's say, the anima, as a powerfully attractive and mysterious woman who seems to be a perfect partner and completion for our sense of self.  This mystical woman seems to ask us to become something more, something more heroic than what we have been.  But she is also drawing us toward the unknown, the dangerous.  We want her . . . but maybe we will be deceived, misled, seduced into some kind of self-destruction or radical interiority (as she seems to be pulling us inward).  We can write poems to her, paint her picture, describe her as if she was actually there, blather on and on about our complex and profound feelings for her.  Lovely!

But then we hold up the biological model that makes sense rationally, and we comes to see that all of these human feelings and anthropomorphizations are a way of describing something that can also be described another way.  In biological language, a language that talks about naturally evolved instincts, we can recognize that many of these profound, numinous emotions (and our thoughts about them) can equally be seen as biological forces that are compelling us toward some survival strategy or material transformation.  For example, in order to reproduce and perpetuate our genes, we need to move from a dependent childhood into a partnership with a viable mate.  We also know (from biology) that humans have very long childhoods compared to most species.  Even our brains don't finish growing completely until we are in our late teens or early twenties.  We are extremely dependent on our parents for survival for many years.

So something (thinking biologically) must really kick the shit our of us to get us to leave the parental nest and find a mate.  Enter the animi.

Now here I am talking about a rational hypothesis.  It's a good one.  It makes a lot of sense.  But it's still a hypothesis.  So, as is the scientific principle for dealing with hypotheses, we test it, see if it can continue to explain the data we are able to throw at it.  So we go back to our taxonomy of psychic phenomena and we see if indeed these stories of anima experiences seem to demonstrate a leaving the nest theme, a movement from the Mother to the partner.  This can be trickier to do, because it's hard to know how to classify these types in the first place.  Our stories, rituals, religions, myths, and art don't give a perfectly abstract, clear cut type for each category.  There is a lot of vagueness and overlap.

But I think that I have seen a significant amount of evidence in the data of psychic phenomena to corroborate the hypothesis that the anima is an archetype that draws a man's libido away from a dependency on his mother and toward a connection with a partner.  This is also conventional Jungian thinking.  Therefore, I must also conclude (to the degree that the above is true) that the hypothesis that archetypes are rooted in biological instincts has been reinforced by both the biological model and the data of psychic phenomena.

I was able to draw this conclusion even though I can only ever perceive egoically, because I was able to establish the Archimedean point of the biological model.  If I had not been able to do this, I would have been drowning in fictions without a life raft in sight.

So when I say that we can only study psyche (defined, let's say, as our perception of our own cognition) insomuch as it behaves like matter or "logically", this is what I mean.  Without the Archimedean point, we have only the ego's mysticisms, its poetry of experience, its perceptual fundamentalism, its Oedipal "swollen foot" that requires it to perceive everything only in terms of itself and only to the degree that it can relate itself to the object.

This principle is based in instinct (the need to know what we are interacting with in the world in order to survive).  If we did not have a tether to the real, the material, we would not be able to survive as living, biological beings here in this material world.  We need and have a reality principle . . . and this principle always strives to establish an Archimedean point and to constantly refine this establishment based on the effectiveness of its hypotheses.  I.e., let's say I think I can out-wrestle a large bear.  I try and am defeated (but somehow manage to survive).  Well, I have learned that in reality, I cannot out-wrestle a bear!  I use this data to modify my hypothesis about my own wrestling prowess in relation to other creatures.  The outside has refined my thinking, bettered my ego-strategy.

You can see, I think, how simple this reasoning is at its core.  Only severe intuitives (like Jungians) would have trouble understanding the value and necessity of the sensation function, the reality principle and its Archimedean points.

And modern science is based in this principle.  We are able to establish knowledge outside of the ego's perspective.  This is done while under the sway of the ego!  That is, part of our cognition (which must, must fall under psyche and consciousness, no?) is realty-oriented.  The sensation function intelligence is part of our psychic makeup.  We cannot hack it off because it offends us (in the Jesusy way).  When we want to talk about psyche credibly, we have to understand that psyche includes a distinct and important orientation to the real (or the perception of the real).  This perception gets feedback from the real, the material, and reformulates ego-strategies (and future perceptions) in regard to this data.

Does it directly perceive the real?  No, but it values the real.  It strives to appreciate and respond to the material.  Even with its perceptual limitations, the ego seeks the outside, the Other, matter.

OK.  I have to run, so must stop here.

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

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Kafiri

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Re: Wrestling with Giegerich
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 08:54:39 AM »
Quote from: Matt Koeske

I think that we are flying around each other with different languages for the most part.  I get the feeling that you are both taking a different meaning from my statement then I intended it to express.  But at the same time, I am having difficulty with the way Neumann addresses this issue.  Some of his language is hard for me to follow.  I read many of the sentences over and over again, by they dissolved in abstraction to me.


Matt my friend,
Please be assured that I seek only to clarify; nothing here is about winning or losing.  With that in mind let me attempt to clarify my position a bit in the hope that we can all find common ground.  I always learn when I read what you write.  I am in complete agreement with you regarding “the biological model.”  I take my lead from Jung, you have seen me use this quote elsewhere:

Quote

..While the personal unconscious is made up essentially of contents which have at one time been conscious but which have disappeared from consciousness through having been forgotten or repressed, the contents of the collective unconscious have never been in consciousness, and therefore have never been individually acquired, but owe the existence exclusively to heredity.  Whereas the personal unconscious consists for the most part of complexes, the content of the collective unconscious is made up essentially of archetypes.
C. G. Jung, The Concept of the Collective Unconscious, found in The Portable Jung, p. 60

So the biological basis of archetypes seems to me to be on a solid foundation.  Now let’s take this  and play with it a bit.  Here is what you have to say:
Quote from: Matt Koeske

Biology is the necessary Archimedean point that orients us and allows us to have a clearer understanding of what archetypes are.

But is it the “only,” or to paraphrase Bill Clinton, is it necessarily “The" only position that orients us regarding archetype? And in particular how does it orient us regarding psychology today?  I take my lead here from James W. Heisig < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Heisig >
In his essay “The Mystique of the Nonrational” Heisig calls for, among other things, “a new spirituality.”
Quote

..My aim here in focusing on the nonrational and its mystique in the context of their works(Jung, Hillman and Whitehead) has no ambitions in the line of correcting the conceptual schemes of any of the three, although that may turn out to be the logical consequences of some of my remarks.  To borrow an image from the Japanese Buddhist philospher Takeuche Yoshnori, it is the standpoint of one standing outside on a dark street looking for something when suddenly light streams from out of a window overhead: “The window and curtains cut me off from what is inside the room, and I probably have no way of ever knowing what is in there.  But if I am able with aid of that light to see something that I might not otherwise have seen out here on this street, that is enough for me.”(Footnote omitted).

What we are looking for, I have suggested, is a new spirituality.  By spirituality I understand the essential temper of a person.  A positive and explicit spirituality consists, on the one hand, of an increase of moral insight into the complexities of life combined with a vision of hope for the future, and on the other, of an awareness of being possessed by reality transcending the conditions of concrete individuality.  It is a response to the nonrational by rational, or perhaps better an interaction between the two.  It can never be given adequate expression in purely conceptual terms, which always reduces the nonrational without remainder to the rational.  A spirituality’s appropriate idiom is the symbol, whose meaning is partly determined, or collective, and partly in need of discovery and interpretation by the individual, or personal.  A spirituality can weaken and its symbols lose their grip on us if it does not keep pace with the advance of public knowledge, or if it represses the function of the individuals who entertain it, as the older spiritualities of the great classical religions and the new spiritualities of our scientific-technological age show respectively.  In such cases we cannot speak of a spirituality for our times because it can no longer be appropriated at both the corporate and personal levels.
The Mystique of the Nonrational, found in Archetypal Process, Self and Divine in Whitehead, Jung and Hillman, pp. 171-172.


The what might the interaction of the rational and nonrational be like? Jung is quite clear that his psychology is a psychology of “experience.”
Quote

...It is for this reason that we today have a psychology founded on experience, and not upon articles of faith or the postulates of any philosophical system...
C. G. Jung, The Spiritual Problem of Modern Man.


Let me amplify the idea of “experience” a bit by turning to quantum physics:

Quote

   Access to the physical world is through experience.  The common denominator of all experiences is the “I” that does the experiencing.  In short, what we experience is not external reality, but our interaction with it.  The is the fundamental assumption of “complementarity.”

  Complementarity is the concept developed by Niels Bohr to explain the wave-particle duality of light.  No one has thought of a better one yet.  Wave-like characteristics and particle-like characteristics, the theory goes are mutually exclusive, or complementary aspects of light.  Although one on them always excludes the other, both of them are necessary to understand the light.  One of them always excludes the other because light, or anything else, cannot be both wave-like and particle-like at the same time.
Gary Zukov, The Dancing Wu Li Masters, pp. 92-93


Reasoning by analogy; are we, here in the Jungian psychology community, not in a position similar to “complementarity?”  On the one hand, we are convinced of the biological basis of archetype and their transmission, while on the other hand we cannot rationally explain how biology creates archetypes, so we find ourselves explaining our experiences of the archetypes in a nonrational manner, the only method available currently.  And, historically the nonrational explanations of experiences have a numinous, religious quality-hence the “mystique” of the nonrational.  To sum up then, as best I can: We can grasp that there is a not yet understood biological basis for archetypes, but to deal with archetypes as we experience them personally in the present, Jung has given us a system to explain, in a scientific fashion, our personal experiences of the archetypes. The language used by Jung to explain the experience, must, like the experiences themselves, have a nonrational, "poetic", "spiritual" quality.   It is my speculation that some day, a theory, or other explanation will emerge that will bridge the gap.
"We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves."
      -Eric Hoffer