Author Topic: On Belief  (Read 25742 times)

Sealchan

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On Belief
« on: February 23, 2007, 05:52:59 PM »
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I'm not sure I'm ready to take all religions as a way or ways of knowing . . . which is why I like to differentiate between the mystical and the cultural arms of religion.  But I find some aspects of Gnosticism appealing.  Still, perhaps in a Gnostic fashion, I feel there is really only one "way" of knowing or seeking truth.  That is, we either seek the truth at all costs or we cease to seek it and settle for belief.

And belief (in my personal intellectual framework) is never knowing . . . by definition.  To me, knowing requires that all possibilities are considered and weighed on the same scale of validity.

I think I can find two points on which our views contradict.  I just have the time to briefly trace out what these are right now...

I "believe" that there is necessarily (although not logically necessary, just experientially necessary) a need to access more than one way of knowing or seeking truth. 

One arguement in favor of this is that the brain and the human body often avoids doing things in one way.  Evolution is harsh with one way approaches so that any bodily or brain function of value is stable under a variety of conditions.  In other words, the evolution of the body has produced multiple ways of accomplishing many important tasks such that this is the rule of thumb rather than the exception.  In the computer security business we have terms like redundancy, load balancing, failover.  The human body has developed a kind of complex mixture of these elements in many important respects.  To the extent that an individual human develops truth or a community does so, there is a variety of identifiable methods/modes/ways of knowing that contribute. 

Also, "belief is never knowing"...I feel that this will, of necessity, work against a proper validation of "intuition" (within proper limits) as a conscious function which produces truth.  In large measure, intuition, from the perspective of sensation, is "just making stuff up".  Even an intuition which is "factually" wrong has a truth value in that it can "work".  Belief probably includes a lot of intuitive knowledge that has a lot of "truth" to it even if it is not entirely true.  If a belief has "value" then it has truth.  I might say there is thinking-truth and feeling-truth and say that systemically they will produce opposite determinations of truth for a given idea or experience and they are both valid within their respective "ways of knowing".  Additionally, I would say that there is very possibly no better way of knowing from which to resolve this disparity.  Or I should say, for one such conflict between ways of knowing there might be a better perspective, but not one that is systematically useable for all conflicts between two ways of knowing.  If that makes sense...

To tie this in with Jung, I see Jung's four functions as, on the whole, an untranscendable quarternity of ways of knowing.  Conflicts between the ways of knowing can be handled locally but not globally within the realm of consciousness.  We require unjustifiable (ideally non-contradictory) beliefs in order to facilitate resolving psychically debilitating problems that arise from these conflicts.  Symbols are partly unconscious not just because we have failed to digest some aspect of psyche, but because we must not digest some aspect of psyche in order for consciousness to exist.  In other words, our egos and our very souls require bias and untruth to form and grow and differentiate from the unconscious.  In saying this, I feel I am tapping into the realm of mystical knowledge... 


Matt Koeske

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2007, 12:48:41 PM »
I think I can find two points on which our views contradict.  I just have the time to briefly trace out what these are right now...

I "believe" that there is necessarily (although not logically necessary, just experientially necessary) a need to access more than one way of knowing or seeking truth.

Hi Sealchan,

I don't disagree with what you are saying about the necessity of multiple ways of knowing on a fundamental level.  I think we are working with different semantic paradigms.

I don't mean to say or imply that a particular belief system is wholly right, making all others wholly wrong.  Not at all.

My impression is that the things you call "ways of knowing", in my own personal lingo, would be titled "ways of believing" or "ways of perceiving".  In my lingo, I reserving "knowing" for a kind of Gnostic interpretation.  Still, I wholeheartedly agree that there can be no "perfect knowing" . . . which to me is the same thing as saying there can be no egolessness.  The ego is a necessary and inescapable aspect of human consciousness.

In my opinion, the various mysticisms that purport a "transcendence" of the ego are not at all transcendent in the way they imagine.  My working theory is that the quality of transcendence is an egoic quality itself.  This ecstasy is specific not to the Self, but to the ego/Self dynamic.  It is, then, the ego that feels transcendent.  The Self simply is.  But as the ego perceives (in an intuitive flash or state of meditation or perhaps a dream) its distinctness and otherness in relation to the Self, the experience is qualified by numinousness.

I currently believe that this numinousness is a kind of neurochemical (not certain this is the preferred term) reinforcement of an important instinctual experience of homo sapiens.  Namely, the experience of the "presence of Otherness" or, perhaps more typically, the experience of the complex pattern recognition of a psychic schematic in which the ego is related precisely to, but still distinguished from, an Other (i.e., the Self).  We know that we are pattern recognition fiends . . . and it makes sense that we would have an emotional reinforcer of these highly valued recognized patterns.

Your own thesis (which I enjoyed very much and will address as soon as I can in its own thread) is a feat of numinous pattern recognition.  This was also recently demonstrated in the conversation between you and Susanna regarding sacred geometry.  We just go gaga over patterns.  Some patterns (for reasons I think you are getting at in your thesis) just seem especially magical to us.  The mandala, for instance.

When something snaps into place with something else in an unexpected way (the unexpectedness relates to the sense of Otherness), a little bang goes off in our brains (and throughout our bodies).  It's a very primal emotion, really (not transcendent in the way it is often described).  Our skin tingles, we feel charged, the hairs on our neck stand on end, our heartbeat increases, etc.  In addition to this, the numinous state seems to kick us into an instinctual mode of consciousness.  Our egoic concerns dissolve to some degree, and as they do, we begin to feel transported into a "heightened consciousness" . . . where we are communing with some kind of greater Other.  And then the egoic world seeps back in, the neurochemical rush dissipates, and we are "normal" again.

I am no stranger to this state (although I have never found it worth courting, to tell the truth), and I have tried to perceive it as clearly as possible when I've fallen into it.  From "within" this state of "consciousness", we are usually inundated with psychic phenomena . . . a vision or dream or fantasy narrative.  Jung followed these phenomena in himself and through recorded history with great diligence . . . and believed that the phenomena themselves (even if a material validity beyond them could not be established) were valuable.  More importantly (to my mind), he noted that these phenomena were studiable.  Studiable as symbols.  As symbols, they corresponded to something "real", to an actuality (although not necessarily a material one).

Eventually, Jung seemed to gravitate away from the notion that the actuality of these phenomena could be studiable (he never said "archetypal actuality" could be studied, if I remember correctly, but he distanced himself from the criticism leveled at him by others on this subject more and more as he aged).  I disagree with this decision of Jung's.  It is, to my mind, contradictory.

After all, Jung was pretty clear about the archetypes being the manifestation of instincts . . . or the categories he assigned to various instinctual processes.  However he danced around this, he was very specific about the term "instinct".  Jung was, in effect, a taxonomist of manifest human instincts.  But he worried that such instincts were too hazy to study properly.

He was wrong.  What we see in evolutionary biology and psychology today is precisely an attempt to study human instincts from a scientific perspective (i.e., using experimental data).

But to get back to the numen, my own observation is that the numinous "higher consciousness" state is actually mistakenly described.  It is a "lower consciousness" state . . . and a very profound and powerful one.  It has more in common with adrenaline rush, with "fight or flight" than it does "expanded consciousness".  What I think we are experiencing in this state is actually a descent into the instinctual, biological self.  Here the ego has not "transcended" the Self, but become temporarily mired in it.
In these states our consciousness is not expanded, it is limited (as in the fight or flight response).  We may pull out of this state a vision of uniting with our god or seeing the earth or universe from a detached "god-perspective", but to give ourselves over to this numinous feeling-vision, we had to relinquish many of the ego's signature concerns and orientations.  "Ecstasy" in this sense is a Procrustean Bed.

We tend to be utterly convinced of the "trueness" of the visions that come from numinous states of consciousness.  But why?  Why do these visions qualify as "more true" than mundane perceptions.  Precisely because they are neurochemically valuated.  These visions are not "more true" in an absolute or material sense.  They FEEL more true . . . and that is the key to numinous experiences.  They are often taken for actual truths, are often literalized . . . but it is our feeling valuation (stemming from an instinctual/archetypal source) that colors them so.

I don't mean this to be reductive or to say that numinousness is "nothing but smoke and mirrors".  All I wish to draw from this is that the intuited "source" of the numinous experience is an Oz behind his curtain, and we get the ego-bedazzled perception of the full theater of the instinctual Self.  In other words, in my opinion, numinous experience is not objectively indicative of anything, does not point to a specific reality behind the emotion.

But its does, I think, point to some kind of reality behind the emotion (perhaps an abstract or categorical reality).  Instincts as powerful as this are not meaningless.  The logical question to ask of these experiences is: What evolutionary purpose do they serve?  Why is the momentary recognition of the dynamic between ego and Self so powerfully reinforced by biological, neurochemical response?  We don't have such instinctual responses for no reason.

It would appear that the recognition of the ego-Self relationship is somehow valuable to the existence and adaptation of our species.  I find that prospect fascinating.  And I also find it a great mystery worth exploring.

My approach to this phenomenon is, I think, mystical (in that it sees meaning in ego-Self dynamic) . . . and yet, it differs from other conventional forms of mysticism in that I try not to derive a prescribed belief from this experience.  To me, it is almost entirely an emotional experience indicating intense value . . . but saying next to nothing about the thing or things being valued.  The numinous experience A for me does not necessitate the belief B.  Numinous experiences (though archetypal) are, on an individual level subjective and personal . . . much like dreams.  They can play a part in our narratives of selfhood, but the extension of such narratives into prescribed laws for others is a step too egoistic for my tastes.

Instead of forming beliefs here, I want to ask more questions.  I want to dig deeper.

But I have digressed too much already (have I done anything but digress  ;D?!).  The evolutionary function of the ego-Self (numinous) relationship is better left to a later post of discussion).

I'll end here and then get back to the topic of belief you broached.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Matt Koeske

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2007, 03:50:02 PM »
Also, "belief is never knowing"...I feel that this will, of necessity, work against a proper validation of "intuition" (within proper limits) as a conscious function which produces truth.  In large measure, intuition, from the perspective of sensation, is "just making stuff up".  Even an intuition which is "factually" wrong has a truth value in that it can "work".  Belief probably includes a lot of intuitive knowledge that has a lot of "truth" to it even if it is not entirely true.  If a belief has "value" then it has truth.

Even as what Jung would term an "Intuitive Type", myself, I am less willing to embrace the innate value of intuition (or to proclaim that intuition can produce truth) than you are, I think.  And, although it might be hard to believe, it is actually very difficult for me to say this . . . for not only am I deeply, even lopsidedly intuitive, but I have found my intuitions (when "validated" by material facts) to be almost eerily unerring.  Of course, the many times I was unable to validate the intuition through other means could have represented potential errors I never became aware of . . . .

I have (for reasons partially pathological, no doubt) challenged my own intuitions devotedly throughout my life.  Aside from the scars of self-punishment, something else, something valuable has come of this.  Namely, my intuitions have become much more honed and clarified than they would have been were I the innately trusting sort.  I don't mean "as compared to the intuitions of others"; I mean "as compared to what my intuitions would have been if I never threw doubt or scrutiny at them."

I have become increasingly uncomfortable embracing Jung's typology theory on a fundamental level . . . but the damn thing is so useful (and any fundamental analysis of it is better left to another topic).  One thing I do like about it (or one way about it I can manipulate to fit my own experience) is its compliment of opposites.  Whatever intuition and sensation are as neurological elements of cognition, they are, most definitely, oppositional to one another in a very distinct way.

Thinking and feeling appear to share this oppositional dynamic (although, in my experience, the conflict has not been significant compared to the primary/inferior opposition . . . which itself could lend credence to Jung's theory of auxiliary functions operating under a somewhat different dynamic).

But (not so much in Jung himself, but) in some Jungian thought, individual types are afforded a "prejudice of purity" that does not correspond with my own experience.  That is, intuition, say, is supposed to be the "go-to" function for a specific kind of thinking . . .  and its opposite, sensation, only clouds or curtails its capacity.  For me, truth does not lie in a pure function . . . but in the coniunctio of that function with its opposite.

Take thinking/feeling for instance.  Pure thinking is very abstract and categorical . . . but too much abstraction from a thing (that has at least some materiality) does not lead to "truth".  Too much abstraction merely renders an idea impractical (a regrettable problem of much intellectual theorizing).  In order to bring an abstract theory into a state of usefulness and applicability, another discernment or differentiation is required.  Specifically, the thinker needs an intelligence that can determine the value of one theoretical paradigm compared to another.  Why is an idea "wrong" or "right"?

The trend in postmodernist academia today is to turn this debate into a nebulous mush . . . which in effect asserts a kind of thinking function purity.  That is, it unconsciously values thinking on a scale of thinking purity.  This marks the particular complex of the pathological (i.e., imbalanced in perspective to the state of enforced unconsciousness of the other) thinking type.  And it should come as no surprise that we see this type in the most theoretical fields: culture studies (itself the theoretical study of something that is abstract), philosophy, quantum physics, cosmology, etc.  This type is drawn to such fields where the "certain" pales in comparison to the unknown, because only in uncertainty can abstract thinking run free, can it be "pure".  And the dream or desire of a pathologically accentuated type is to purify everything with the primary type of thinking.  It's an act of colonization . . . and the fields with the least certainty offer the best colonial opportunities for thinking types.

By contrast, we rarely see this type of thinker in, say, biology . . . or sciences in which practical results determine the usefulness of ideas.

In this pathology of purity (for the thinking function), the process of valuation is enslaved to the primary function's libido . . . but enslaved in a purely unconscious way.  The value of abstract thinking to the thinking type is self-evident.  There is no need to get bogged down in issues of valuation.  But of course, the whole psyche does not abide by the prejudices of the ego alone.  Valuation then is given over to the shadow . . . and used irresponsibly (and tends to take on an infantile character).

Without going into as much detail, something very similar happens for the feeling type that has become pathologically accentuated.  The ability to use abstract thought to "detach" from an idea or issue enough to develop a broader perspective on it or to simplify it enough to consciously compare and contrast it with other ideas is stunted.  Abstraction is deemed pointless . . . because the feeling type person knows what's what, what's right and what's wrong.

This attitude falters when abstract ideation is given over to the unconscious shadow.  In these circumstances, the feeler is not cognizant that the thing s/he is certain is right (at the expense of other things) is, in fact, an abstract idea and not a thing-in-itself.  S/he does not question the abstractness (and therefore, the arbitrariness) of pet ideas.

But, in order to think clearly (on this axis of differentiation that thinking and feeling seem to operate on), an equal union of the thinking and feeling intelligences produces the best result.  The scale is balanced . . . and this is an apt metaphor, because the "midpoint" between thinking and feeling is what might be considered "Justice".  Justice is ideal differentiation.

When it comes to intuition and sensation, I see the same dynamic in operation.

Intuition is a cognitive function that illuminates how things might be related to other things.  It senses patterns and potentials.  This makes it the primary intelligence behind mysticism, I think, because (as I see it) mysticism is rooted in the relational dynamic between the ego and the Self.  Mysticism, then, tells us the nature of the relationship between the ego and the Self.

Intuition, in my experience, is profoundly logical . . . but the logic of intuition is not easily discerned unless we devoutly employ the sensation function.  Jung called synchronicity "acausal" . . . and if I remember correctly, he took this notion of acausality from the nascent quantum physics of his day.  I disagree completely (with both Jung and with the Copenhagen school of quantum physics that intrigued him, to the small degree that I can understand it).

Insomuch as intuition is the "bread and butter" behind synchronicity, synchronicity is entirely causal.  The "trick" of intuition (and here I do see a parallel with quantum physics) is that it is atemporal.  That is, it does not operate by our standard sense of linear time.  Like a wave, intuition can be in multiple places simultaneously.  Bang . . . the whole relational pattern emerges as a whole.

Jung makes the same mistake that (I have come to believe) the Copenhagen quantum physicists made/make: namely, he interjects the perceptual measurement of the ego/observer, which has the effect of making a wave appear to be a particle when observed/measured.  In other words, noting points in the grid of the intuitive pattern interjects the sense of linear time and position we require to think about things.

As for causality, I believe the relationship between the arbitrary points in this intuitive pattern is absolutely logical . . . in the sense that "when there is A, A will always lead to B".  But what pathological intuitives all too frequently fail to grasp is that there need not be an A.  That is, all of the causal, logical connections are potentials . . . logical potentials of causal relationship.  Each potential has a kind of "situational weight" in a given circumstance . . . so, in circumstance X, let's say, there is a higher probability that A will lead to B than there is that A will lead to C.  All the situational weights for each potential are automatically factored into the intuitive burst.

By automatically, I mean "unconsciously" . . . in a pathological intuitive type.  This can be so unconscious as to create the impression of a leap, an almost linear leap from point A to point Z with no recognition of all the relational "choices" made in between".

The problem with this is that it is very difficult for the intuitive to differentiate one potential from another, because the intuitive does not understand the "situational weighting" that necessitates the various complex turns and branchings-off that causally led from A to Z.  And why?  Why was the situational weighting meted out as it was?  The intuitive doesn't know.  S/he doesn't actually understand the fundamentals of the situation.

And so, when the intuitive goes to act on or apply the results of the intuitive flash, suddenly the situation has changed.  The act itself involves other factors in the intuitive equation and can "jostle" the pattern intuited.  Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that intuitives tend to be horrible at actualizing and applying.  It is easier to intuit without application, because one can "see" without the technicalities of influencing the seen.

But the intuitive who can learn to bring intuition together with the practicality of sensation . . . which senses the "thingness of things" and can tell us how they can be used . . . can begin to flesh out the "situational weighting" and the causal connections in the intuitive pattern.  This can potentially be done to the degree that the effects of action can be calculated into the intuitive equation . . . albeit with the loss of a kind of "false certainty" that A always necessitates B.

The pathological intuitive has a "sweep under the rug" reflex for intuited potentials that don't pan out.  The intuitive intelligence is throwing out potential patterns like crazy (and somewhat indiscriminately) . . . most of which are ignored or allowed to evaporate.  But inevitably, some of the intuitive patterns manifest in the real world . . . and the intuitive personality latches on to these as mystical truths, perhaps divinely sent.

This tends to lead to a "totemization of the actual" . . . which is the hallmark of the pathological intuitive.  This is characterized by the magical valuation (all the more accentuated in auxiliary thinking types who valuate more or less unconsciously) of any intuition that "comes true".  No matter that these intuitions that come true are far outweighed by those that never materialize in any way.  This is lost on the intuitive.  The intuitive here places so much importance on the manifestation of an intuition, that s/he doesn't retain any consciousness of randomness and probability . . . of the annoying little fact that it could have been otherwise (and frequently is).

Intuitives (who also lean heavily toward auxiliary thinking) have a special love of mystical patterns (and we see this a lot in people like ourselves, in Jungians and those interested in mysticism) . . . but they have a distinct difficulty with bringing the recognition of such patterns into a practical usefulness.  For such intuitives, that mystical patterns "are" is absolute proof of their mystical authenticity . . . not what such patterns can do, what they can be applied to.  We might call it "pattern worship".  A favorite Jungian pastime.

But is the worship of such patterns indicative of the sole function of those patterns (i.e., as objects of worship)?  It would hardly seem so.  It is possible to see these mystical patterns as abstractions of a relational dynamic.  A mandala, for instance, is the abstraction of a relational dynamic (usually between the ego and the Self) . . . and it may be able to give us a snap shot of what is (or was) at a point in time . . . but it is much less helpful in informing us how to do.  The Self is a living, acting thing.  It's dynamic and present, not still and abstracted.

My brief but rather rich experience in Jungian communities has lead me to believe that the thorn in the paw of many Jungians, perhaps even the "Jungian disease" is this tendency to relate to the Self as though it were still and abstracted rather than immediate, communicative, adaptive, dynamic . . . and life-seeking/libidinous.  I think this is a veil of maya many Jungians don't want to transgress.  It's a tabooed realm, this realm of the living, dynamic, instinctual Self . . . the Self that acts "biologically", the Self as prima materia.

So, although this digression is excessive, I hope that it indicates what I think about the multiple "ways of knowing".  Basically, that there is a crux, a coniunctio with all of these intelligences where a kind of equilibrium exists.  This all distills down to one point, one "way of knowing" that balances all ways of knowing.  I am happy calling this theoretical midpoint "Gnosis".

But I (and here we definitely seem to agree) do want to emphasize that this point, this Gnosis (in my opinion and experience) is theoretical.  An actual point is stillness, death.  In death, multiple ways of knowing are not in a state of equal interplay (or equilibrium).

So, we may be left with a rather mystical question: is there any perfect knowing other than death?  In life there is flux, and in flux there is no perfection.  Perhaps Gnosis is this dynamic.  Jung's idea of "wholeness" is pretty much the same thing.  I would only add that perfection (which is the dream of thinking function-guided spiritualism) is an abstract idea.  Wholeness, equilibrium, flux, balance, reciprocation . . . this is actual and practical.  We see this constantly in nature, in every aspect of nature . . . whereas perfection is only glimpsed in our imaginations.


Well, this came out more muddled than I would have liked . . . a sign, I feel of an excess of abstraction on my part.  It is hard for an intuitive to think through these steps in a way intuition has no patience for  :D.  I am heading in the general direction of where I wanted to go, at least.

Apologies for meandering.

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Matt Koeske

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 04:46:43 PM »
To tie this in with Jung, I see Jung's four functions as, on the whole, an untranscendable quarternity of ways of knowing.  Conflicts between the ways of knowing can be handled locally but not globally within the realm of consciousness.

My response is that the Self is the global regulator of such typological conflicts . . . and the ego is capable of approaching this global perspective to the degree that it lives for the Self, has learned the Self's language and can observe and react to the Self's reactive/corrective/regulatory jolts.  I think the attunement to the Self's language can be developed (is, in essence, what the Work is all about).

But it's very tricky, because the ego contaminates its own perception of the Self enormously.  It is impossible to know what the Self is "saying" until the ego and the Self are very distinctly differentiated.  But even this differentiation is never absolute.  I don't think there is a perfect state of consciousness in which we always know what the Self is saying.  And this is not surprising, because the ego is always going to be an organ of the Self, will always be a small function of a greater process.

Quote from: Sealchan
We require unjustifiable (ideally non-contradictory) beliefs in order to facilitate resolving psychically debilitating problems that arise from these conflicts.  Symbols are partly unconscious not just because we have failed to digest some aspect of psyche, but because we must not digest some aspect of psyche in order for consciousness to exist.  In other words, our egos and our very souls require bias and untruth to form and grow and differentiate from the unconscious.  In saying this, I feel I am tapping into the realm of mystical knowledge...

I'm not certain I agree . . . although I do agree with your statement that you are tapping into the realm of mystical knowledge.  I am just unconvinced that this is the proverbial "bottom of the well".  What you say about necessary bias and untruth, yes, this is what it "is like" to perceive this state . . . or what it "feels like".  But I'm not sure this is what it "is".

For instance, I don't think consciousness is in any way dependent upon a refusal to digest something potentially digestible or upon an embrace of untruth . . . I think that these refusals and embraces are common characteristics of ego-consciousness.  Ego-consciousness has many reasons to self-deceive (perhaps even biological/evolutionary ones), but I think the mystical magnetism of the Self opposes the ego's self-deception-for-self-protection . . . increasingly as the mystical process unfolds.

But I also don't think the ego ever "sees clearly".  It just isn't designed to.  The ego stories everything, makes it into a condensed narrative that is sensible to it.  The Self will always be a story to the ego, as the ego can only understand reality (inner or outer) in story format.

We will never eradicate God (God being here a name for the storying of the Self) with consciousness.  Consciousness is the desire of God, not a threat.  Even as we revise and revise our storying and excise the wish-fulfillments, delusions, and hubris contamination, even as we discard a particular language (say one of the conventional religious ones) for a more precise one (say a Jungian one, or, the biological-spiritual gnostic language I am perhaps vainly striving for) . . . we cannot erase (but only rename) God.

We can, I think, come upon an increasingly functional language, one that adds more dimension, more detail, more subtlety, more differentiation to our stories . . . but we can't lose language altogether.  We can't transcend language.  The ego is, in this sense, language.  The ego is condemned to the "as-if".

But this, to my mind, is not a reason to place false limitations on the quest to know.  After all, who is to determine where these limitation or taboos are to be erected?  Does the ego ever really deserve this right?  Does it deserve the right to stop the discontented quest to know?  The minute it awards itself that right, it commits one of its signature acts of hubris.

Does the Self really say, "Ok, that's enough.  Stop here." or does it always say, "Come closer . . ."?  The Self, I think, never stops wanting the ego, never stops needing it.  I think any such barriers set up between the two are designed by the ego in order to protect itself from the intimacy and responsibility of deeper commitment to the Self.

And of course, this is also entirely a mystical language.

You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Sealchan

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 02:16:09 PM »
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We tend to be utterly convinced of the "trueness" of the visions that come from numinous states of consciousness.  But why?  Why do these visions qualify as "more true" than mundane perceptions.  Precisely because they are neurochemically valuated.  These visions are not "more true" in an absolute or material sense.  They FEEL more true . . . and that is the key to numinous experiences.  They are often taken for actual truths, are often literalized . . . but it is our feeling valuation (stemming from an instinctual/archetypal source) that colors them so.

Yes, and I see that the feeling valuation is true in its context...that the experience is true because it feels true.  But, again, I would place that truth in the context of the way of knowing which contains it, namely, the feeling function.  In this way, we cannot say in a final way that this is not true even if further investigation reveals an experience where the opposite feeling is produced relative to the same experience. 

This is just the fluctuation of the personal truth which, itself has inherent value.  We must come to dissolve our own deeply needed illusions via personal experience no matter what the majority or the collective says.  That is, unless the experience is not deep and the collective community of knowing is personally admitted to determine the individual's understanding.  So with this dichotomy of personal versus collective we (a collective referent to truth) can have a sense that someone's feelings are wrong even if it is antithetical to feeling to deny a feeling unless a contradictory feeling is given equal voice.

I think Jung was deeply wise to point out that no matter how preposterous the fantasy of the individual from the collective perspective, if that individual perceives truth in that fantasy, then there is truth in it.  One must engage with that personal truth and have the faith that the unconscious will facilitate the needed transformations to unearth the real truth-value from the non or maladaptive aspects of the belief.  The movie K-Pax explored this theme fairly well, I think.  As did Don Juan DeMarco...

This is where we must, as a rule, be ready to take at face value the beliefs of others because who are we to know what careful balance such fantasies have achieved to allow that ego to persist in the world in which it had to heroically emerge?

Matt Koeske

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2007, 03:27:43 PM »
I think Jung was deeply wise to point out that no matter how preposterous the fantasy of the individual from the collective perspective, if that individual perceives truth in that fantasy, then there is truth in it.  One must engage with that personal truth and have the faith that the unconscious will facilitate the needed transformations to unearth the real truth-value from the non or maladaptive aspects of the belief.

My concern is that this approach devalues truth by reducing it to a purely personal thing . . . in which case all connotations of the term "truth" seem to be lost.

Now, I agree with Jung that personal fantasies can be valuable (not only to the person fantasizing them, but at times, to others . . . as in the case of art, for instance).  I agree that they are worth paying attention to.  But whether on the personal or the collective level, the problem comes when this "truth" or value or whatever is literalized.

One of the major flaws of the scientific rationalist community that disparages religious belief is that it judges belief in a literal arena.  It says, "Here are 50 reasons why this belief is false."  In the literal arena, these arguments are usually correct.  But they still miss the point, because the value of belief is not to be found in the literal arena.  The value of belief is in the symbol (what I sometimes also call the pre-language . . . dreams, for instance, would be pre-language).  That is, as soon as we concretize the symbol or pre-language into verbal or written language, we have displaced it somewhat from its context (from the context of the Self into an ego-based context).

What is less often acknowledged is that, in their own way, most religious believers are just as "rationalistic" as the scientific atheists.  What I mean is that, believers also tend to value their beliefs on a scale of literalism.  They insist that evidence that supports their beliefs is to be found in the literal, material world.  And when they talk about the value of, say, God, they award value to the notion of the divine based on how real "He" is.

This "realness" is assessed on the basis of how real God feels to them.  Or, frequently, they cling to incidents in which they felt God "materialized" to them as proof (e.g., synchronicities or other numinous events they can't easily explain).  That is, they are not content with God being entirely non-material, non-literal, symbolic, phenomenological, psychic.  Much belief, then, becomes an attempt to convince oneself that there is enough literal evidence to warrant belief . . . and not surprisingly, this creates an impetus to construct such evidence.  Such construction is facilitated by self-deception . . . because the need to manufacture "literal evidence" of the divine or spiritual out-weighs the non-literal experience of that thing we often term the divine or spiritual.

The believer, then, becomes more oriented toward the literalized belief-creation than to the experience.  Such belief-creation becomes an essential aspect of self-definition, of the ego's sense of selfhood.  Which means it becomes less and less about the experience of the Other.

By which I mean to say that we as believers are getting away from the source to the degree that we desire our beliefs to serve us or protect us.  And I think it is at this point that we can start making universal value differentiations . . . it is at this point that, if we do not make universal value differentiations, we lapse into immorality.

Take for instance a couple common Christian beliefs that are very closely related to one another. 1) Jesus died for the sins of humanity (pretty vague, vague enough as to be meaningless, but it's a "slogan" that gets bandied around a lot), and 2) The Jews were/are "Christ-Killers".

The first belief isn't inherently harmful (unless coupled with other harmful beliefs).  It might merely mean that we choose to invest the power of spiritual salvation in this figure of Christ.  But the second belief (which is quite frequently coupled with the first belief in some way) is morally reprehensible.  It's based in racial prejudice and it has been used to "justify" innumerable atrocities since the idea was handed to us in the Gospels.

Yet, a great many Christians throughout history (and an alarming number in the United States even today) do not differentiate between these two beliefs.  They are both part of the biblical dogma that is Christianity, after all.

Of course not all differentiations among beliefs are so dramatic . . . but I think they can usually be made with enough honest evaluation.  How much of each of our beliefs is really rooted in "what is" and how much in "what do I want this belief to do for me?"  I don't think we can throw a blanket value over all beliefs . . . and I would even say that affording beliefs such a blanket value is itself an immoral act. 

All beliefs are not created equal.  And so we need some other way to differentiate.  One of the most obvious criteria to use for the differentiation of beliefs is to judge them based on what effect they have on the acts of those who believe them.

"Pop atheist", Sam Harris is fond of pointing out that the real problem with certain religious beliefs isn't that they are wrong or irrational; it's that they are dangerous when literalized or acted out.  As he says, Jains don't strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up in a crowd of civilian "infidels" . . . and he therefore has no gripe with the non-violent belief system of the Jains.

When one engages in the pursuit of consciousness or Gnosis, this differentiation process becomes much more subtle and refined.  We begin to realize that every time we leave a belief unexamined, we are relinquishing responsibility for what we might do in the name of that belief.  We are giving that belief unconscious autonomy.  As the pursuit of consciousness progresses, all beliefs will eventually come into conflict with the drive behind consciousness.  Which isn't to say that all beliefs can or should be eradicated during the pursuit of consciousness, only that they have to be differentiated based on the effect they might have.  Consciousness demands the acceptance of responsibility for the effects of all beliefs held.  Consciousness is therefore a moral pursuit first and foremost

You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Sealchan

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2007, 05:30:06 PM »
Quote
But whether on the personal or the collective level, the problem comes when this "truth" or value or whatever is literalized.

I should say that I think we can reduce our disagreement if I acknowledge more clearly that ways of knowing are not entirely beyond critique.  Some ways of knowing could probably be reduced to lameness by such a bewildering array of counter arguements of greater depth and breadth that would make the idea popular only to the fanatical motivated by unconscious factors.  I don't mean to give a blanket justification to all perspectives, but rather to really highlight that a statement of truth always is embedded in a way of knowing.  Also, I would say that there are infinite tensions of mutual contradictory perspective that can come into play, especially on deeper statements of truth and that one should harbor such distinctions rather than focus on reducing one to the other.

Inappropriate literalizing is a common mistake made by mono-modal knowers.  They have to do this in order to pick up truth-real estate from other contexts.  The irony is that the faith that is often the very foundation of the belief system in question is dropped the moment literalization occurs.  That so many people don't see this, I believe, is because of the predominant, common sense of mono-modal truth.  Those Christians who put their faith in the literal historical accuracy of the Bible are as lost as if they denied the God who is, after all, beyond any book or words, no matter how holy or ordained anyone has claimed those words to be in the name of that God.  Many Christians worship the Bible, not God. 

Of course, in denying the ultimate authority of the Bible, I am stepping out of most Christian collective systems for determining spiritual truths.  I can do this with my Promethean nature relatively easily.  Am I not stepping into the role of Satan who, according to one story, has himself cast into Hell because he would not go against God's original order to bow to no one but Him?  Then God created humans and told the angels to serve them.  In Satan's refusal he was cast into Hell.  Similarly with Brunnehilde in Wagner's Ring trilogy.  She obeys her father Wotan's original deepest wish after her father changes his orders and is punished in a kind of Hell.  This proceeds the glorious coniunctio in Wagner's opera fortunately.

Now if I were to propose a God-Satan reconciliation, how many Christian friends would I make?  Heck if God and Satan could work things out, why not Bush and Bin Laden?  But these days, Christianity is suffering from lack of interest due to its general inability of the Christian community to develop its relationship to God over time.  One can still walk into a church and hear such non-sense as literal warnings against witchcraft. 

And what greater criticism is there against a way of knowing than a mass exodus of those who were raised in that tradition?

Still, I see myself as Christian...but I have to largely carve out my own understanding.





Matt Koeske

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Re: On Belief
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2007, 02:09:15 PM »
I should say that I think we can reduce our disagreement if I acknowledge more clearly that ways of knowing are not entirely beyond critique.  Some ways of knowing could probably be reduced to lameness by such a bewildering array of counter arguements of greater depth and breadth that would make the idea popular only to the fanatical motivated by unconscious factors.  I don't mean to give a blanket justification to all perspectives, but rather to really highlight that a statement of truth always is embedded in a way of knowing.  Also, I would say that there are infinite tensions of mutual contradictory perspective that can come into play, especially on deeper statements of truth and that one should harbor such distinctions rather than focus on reducing one to the other.

Hi Sealchan,

OK.  I am understanding better now . . . and I have no disagreement with what you say above.  I apologize if I have misconstrued your argument.  I think I am reacting against a prevailing attitude in academia these days that is one of the hallmark trends of postmodernism or poststructuralism.  Of course, the postmodernists and poststructuralists would not be expounding upon belief, per se (as they would likely see religious beliefs as socially constructed and otherwise "sourceless") . . . but this trend of their thought I'm referring to tends to devalue various beliefs and opinions by placing them all on the same level (and asserting their "meaninglessness" beyond that).

So I was worried that an affirmation of the value of belief that still left all beliefs on the same "value plateau" would have the same effect . . . namely, devaluation.  I think valuation is essentially comparative.  Which is my best guess for why feeling/valuation vies for dominance with thinking (in the Jungian paradigm).  They are competitors in the realm of differentiation.  Just as sensation and intuition are competitors in the realm of perception.

In any case, I have a long ongoing battle with the poststructuralist mindset (one of the main reasons I left academia) . . . so I probably had a knee-jerk reaction after misinterpreting the gist of your theory.

Beyond that, your take on Christianity is very interesting (and unconventional, I might add).  As you are, I'm sure, well aware, I can be very harsh on Christianity (which I differentiate from those who believe or find meaning in it . . . I myself find meaning in it).  In fact, I am the most Satanic kind of non-Christian, a "Christ Myther".

But I don't want to start one of my assaults on Christianity.  Rather, I'd like to take your post and copy it to a new thread in the Religion and Spirituality section . . . under a new topic called something like "The Salvation of Christianity?" or "Progressive Christianity?"  My hope is that some discussion could develop around what can be done to keep the Christian mythos healthy and functional in the 21st century.  It's a question that has long interested me . . . and one which, I must confess, I have frequently come away from dismayed.

But I am also interested in how you manage to merge Christian beliefs with both Jungian and modern scientific thinking.  And I don't mean that cynically.  I think I have a reasonable idea of how you do it . . . and I respect that.  I also hold a number of seemingly incompatible beliefs (e.g., the value of mysticism and naturalistic atheism).  But I think it would make for a valuable, exploratory discussion.  It is so rare these days (or so it seems to me, at least) that talk of Christianity can take place in an arena larger than or expanding beyond the Christian belief system itself (say, in Bible study groups or theological seminaries).

I guess I'm saying that good old theology has become a niche area of thought . . . and that's disappointing to me.  It is much the same with the atheist set (like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins).  They talk about Christianity from a position housed entirely within scientific rationalism.  That never seemed appropriate to me.

I'll copy and paste your post, but it looks like I won't have time to respond much at the moment.

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]