Author Topic: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious  (Read 25524 times)

Matt Koeske

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Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« on: May 22, 2007, 11:42:33 AM »
I am ideologically, and by my earlier training, an evolutionary biologist, and I try to look at everything through that lens. I’ve never focused that lens on the human psyche though, so I’m intrigued by Jung’s thoughts on this. You wrote that the Work is a shift away from the Ego world back to the instinctual world (I think!). The immediate question I have is why this schism occurred in the first place. Why did the Ego split off? I’m not a neo-Darwinist by any means (a la Dawkins), but I do wonder about the why of this.

Hi Keri,

A good question . . . and a good mystery. Jung and many others have speculated about the development of ego-consciousness. More recently, the evolutionary psychologists and biologists and the neuroscientists have thrown their hats in the ring. Since there are so many hats in there, I don't feel so bad about throwing mine in, too . . . even though I lack the scholarly expertise to add anything of much value.

I would say the first step, the first thing to establish is that the ego did indeed develop "out of the unconscious". We can surmise that this is true since 1) the human ego/consciousness (although not as unique as we have liked to think, as you point out) is still a pretty odd bird here on planet Earth . . . and there are distinct cognitive difference between humans and their closest biological ancestor, chimpanzees, and 2) if the human ego is a recent development in our evolution (perhaps as recent as 50,000 years ago, if it corresponds highly with brain development), "we" obviously didn't have it (in its current, recognizable state) before then . . . leaving hundreds of thousands (or is it millions, I have a poor memory for numbers?) of years of evolution since we split off from chimps.

#1 above rests on the assumption that human civilization, creativity, and language are the main measures of "ego-development". In other words, I would at least posit that the essence of the human ego is to be found more in the products of human sociality than in "raw intelligence", per se (although our capabilities there also exceed those of chimps). So, ego is a kind of consciousness directed at sociality and (I believe) one composed of language (where language is not meant to be confined to words alone, but can also include symbols, images, narratives, etc.).

A consciousness composed of language (insomuch as this is more than a poetic metaphor and has some validity even in scientific thought) poses a problem biologically speaking. We can map the neocortex and catalog all of the developments during the evolutionary span between humans and chimps . . . but although this may give us what seem to be a number of linguistic brain modules, these are not themselves composed of language. When we look back at fossil records and artifacts of proto-humans, we find that they were hunter-gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years that had very basic tool-making capacity (simple stone ax heads, mostly, I believe). But for those hundreds of thousands of years, the same stone ax heads were made without any deviation or improvement. That doesn't sound like the human species of today. I'd like to think that even someone as mechanically inept as me could manage to improve on tool design at least a bit in a couple hundred thousand years.

But around 50,000 years ago the archaeological record starts to show cave paintings, representations, and developments in tool design. I believe the current evolutionary thinking is that this was homo sapiens . . . and that these ancestors were biologically identical to modern humans (i.e., that we have not evolved biologically since then). [Please correct me if I am bungling this; I'm working from memory]. So, if the ego is a biological adaptation, perhaps it "began" around 50,000 years ago. How it must have gradually emerged from the instinctual "unconscious" is still a matter of debate (and we may never know).

But what is (I think) more curious about ego-development is that the "modern ego" seems to have many different characteristics than this "ancient ego" . . . and these differences can't be explained by evolution alone. My guess is that the brain modules that evolved to make the ego possible were enormously plastic. In our modern societies, they are capable of producing an ego like the ones we are familiar with today. But if we had been born 50,000 years ago with exactly the same genetic make-up we have now, we would have adapted perfectly well to the tribal human culture of our hunter-gatherer ancestors.

I have recently been thinking of this post-biological ego-development as a kind of secondary evolution, an evolution that doesn't have the same constraints as material evolution, because it is not based in the "materia" of genetic mutations, but in the abstract materia of information (Dawkins might say "memes", but there are some flaws in that construct, I think). In other words, what human beings have that other species don't seem to have is access to this "hyper-drive", abstract, "evolutionary" process. By "evolutionary" here, I primarily mean "adaptive". We are super-adapters. Whereas other life forms must rely on biological, genetic mutations for the majority of their environmental adaptations, humans can rely on their enormous cognitive plasticity to find ways to adapt to changes in environment that might even destroy many other species (this plasticity also allows us to be extremely mobile).

I think that if we stick with scientific data, we are ultimately faced with the great mystery of human egoism, i.e., that it cannot be entirely "biological", because it seems to be able to adapt significantly faster than biological evolution can permit. The highly plastic cooperative of brain modules that allows for the ego is thus capable of creating an "artificial intelligence" . . . where "artificial" means, merely, not entirely biological or material (even if it is rooted in materiality). This artificial intelligence can then adapt to an immense array of social situations by "act of cognition" alone . . . or by directed learning, rather than through random mutation.

So, with that pie in the oven baking away, let's jump to psychology. Let's look at the ego phenomenologically and dissect it a bit. I haven't read all of the essential writings coming out of contemporary cognitive studies, but I know (via Daniel Dennett's writing) that there is this notion of the ego-consciousness as a "Multiple Drafts" model. Now, I am a layman . . . but I'm also a writer, so I feel as capable of understanding the ego as "multiple drafts" as any scientist. I know this from the craft, from the creation of fictions. What Dennet and a number of others have settled on (and I wholeheartedly agree) is a notion of consciousness as a continuous narrative . . . and a narrative made up of numerous other sub-narratives ("drafts") hierarchically pieced together.

These narratives are all caught up in a system of information processing where various streams of information ("streams of consciousness" as we writerly types have called them for some time now) are constantly being related to other streams. These relational processings are (in my opinion, but I doubt this is a unique idea) valuated (or ranked, quantified, weighed) largely on the basis of their usefulness. Now the tricky question, the one that really needs to be asked here is: based on their usefulness to what?

This is where the phenomenology of consciousness gets really slippery. I think that cognitive valuation of information is assessed based on the usefulness to the ego. And that's fascinating, because the ego (as hypothesized earlier) is not material! But if we dissect this "sense of selfhood", we can pretty easily see that it is composed of narrative stuff. For instance, when I think, "Whom am I?" I think about what I believe in, what I like, what I value, who I relate to, where I belong (and don't belong). I "am" the way I respond to the world (both outer and inner). I am not a thing, per se, but a complex of intricately inter-related responses that all rotate around an imaginary axis, a center of gravity (Dennett: "center of narrative gravity"). As this complex encounters more and more information, it acquires a certain quality of "mass". More information is related to other information. This cognitive relationality becomes enormously intricate. And the more of this narrative mass we have, the more we are able to relate things to it . . . and perhaps the more inclined we are to value things that most readily relate to our narrative mass. I.e., eventually, our mass becomes self-perpetuating . . . favoring self-similar information and ignoring or devaluing self-dissimilar information.

But before we get too wrapped up in the vortex of our phenomenological consciousness as "center of narrative gravity", we need to step back and ask "why?" Why would evolution produce such an adaptation? What we have here is a cognitive structure so plastic (or adaptive) that it can adapt to all kinds of environmental situations with unprecedented rapidity. In the "center of narrative gravity" model, our consciousness (as non-material) takes on a quality of arbitrariness unlike any other animal's. We can "invent" ourselves. Even as our environments (our experiences) help construct us, we can interpret and mold them. We can do this by reshaping the clay of our selfhood. We can't entirely control what happens to us (in many circumstances), but we can change the self that reacts to these things, thus granting them different meanings and values.

It seems logical to hypothesize that we have evolved this arbitrary, self-making intelligence (or the capacity for it) because it aided our survival (in numerous ways . . . both as individuals and as a species). But it also seems likely that the measure of "mass" of this narrative ego is a product of the "mass" of the culture the individual is part of. As this cultural mass grows (probably as various tribes integrate and tribal population and diversity increase), the individual egos have to learn more relationality, adapt to more otherness, more and more information.

In other words, we needed to be able to grow an "ego like a goldfish" that can just keep growing and growing, adapting to increasingly complex societies (fish bowls, aquariums, ponds, lakes . . .) and their languages and rules of interaction. I think it would be a mistake to assume that human beings "became conscious" 50,000 years ago . . . or that our consciousness is a universal essential to our survival. It is all too easy to look around and recognize, even in our modern tribes, how little true consciousness there is. By "consciousness" here, I mean the sense of awareness of our own narrative structure and the arbitrariness of our systems of self-creation and information valuation.

Even in the Jungian community (with its emphasis on individuation), this kind of consciousness is fairly rare (or is to be found only in very limited pockets in most individuals). We generally don't understand that the "selfhood" we are made up of is highly arbitrary, only a fabric of fictions that can usually be traced back to simplistic, defensive strategies (usually rooted in early childhood and adolescence). We are entirely capable of taking a highly complex philosophical system like Jung's and manipulating it into a basic personal defense strategy . . . rather than using it as a tool with which to "become conscious". We like to think we are tremendously "evolved" because we collect such complicated and vast ideas. But the complexity of these ideas is mostly used for strategic purposes. Foremost among these strategic purposes (I think) is self-protection.

I would posit that the impetus (and probably one of the "instincts") behind ego-formation in our species is basic self-preservation. The center of narrative gravity that is the human ego "coheres" as it does (around its axis) in order to fortify the individual against danger and death. This is all the more essential in a species like ours that it radically social and dependent on other individuals to achieve maximum survivability (and equilibrium with the environment). But all organisms must be highly self-protective in order to survive (a protectiveness that is generally only sacrificed for the betterment of the "tribe" or for the perpetuation of one's genes, if we take a page from Richard Dawkins).

If, then, the ego is a "selfishness strategy", it is really no surprise that it is (or appears to be) "in charge" of mediating between the individual and others. I believe that, when we peal apart the human ego, we will find mostly self-protection strategies. Even as we develop "ethical consciousness", we continue to formulate better, more plastic, more adaptive strategies for selfhood . . . better and better ways to exist among the various groups we must relate to. The ego is filled with highly complex fight or flight strategies . . . and these strategies are largely concerned with individual survival. We humans are merely capable of abstracting these strategies many levels beyond the immediate, instinctual response that all animals exhibit. We can propose complicated, imaginary scenarios to ourselves that allow us to avoid dangers or threats to our selfhood.

It is pretty clear to us, additionally, that our egos are primarily concerned with protecting themselves or their narrative gravity (or personal fiction) even more so than they are with protecting the physical organism that houses them. Egos go through all kinds of convolutions that are dramatically destructive to the living strategies for the organism as a whole . . . and just for the sake of protecting their arbitrary narratives. We might think of this strategical breakdown as neurosis or "complex".

It is here, perhaps most of all, where evolution shows its typical, anything-but-divine hand. Egos are amazing "tools" for their plasticity and adaptability . . . but they are like exotic, Italian sports cars: they break down very easily. We have to spend much of our time carefully maintaining them . . . rather than racing around maniacally. Our physical bodies, for instance, are much less temperamental. I suspect that this is the mark of a relatively "new" adaptation, biologically speaking. And the more we ask of our egos, the more likely they are to break. I am thinking of modernism, huge cultures, technology, world wars, industrialization, etc.

But in this phenomenological examination of our egoic fragility, we also discover that our consciousness, our entire consciousness, is not composed of, nor is it entirely dependent on, the arbitrary language-construct we call the ego. I would refer you to my earlier postings on the ego and the Self in this forum for more detail on this (i.e., how do the ego and the Self interact . . . and why). What we find in depth psychology (especially in Jung's psychology, I think) is that we do not only have instincts for egoism and ego-making . . . we also have instincts for ego-regulation. We seem to have a consciousness (or the unconscious, if you prefer) that helps "fix" broken down ego strategies, that tries to reorient the ego in an adaptive manner.  Another unconscious, self-regulatory process oriented to equilibrium achievement.

I simply call this conglomerate of unconscious instincts: the Self . . . in the Jungian fashion. But, I am very particular about not mystifying the Self. Sometimes I call it the "instinctual Self" or the "whole organism". To me, the Self is entirely biological . . . and this is where I tend to part ways with most Jungians. In my way of seeing, "spirituality" is a particular genus of egoic narratives that are constructed from the ego's perspectives of our biological instincts. The archetypes are, simply put, instincts. They are not gods. They are not souls or soul fragments. They are not "primordial images". They are not "mind" (assessed materialistically . . . phenomenologically they are very much these things). They are material, natural, logical, ordered instincts . . . and therefore, they have adapted throughout our evolution to the specific environmental needs our species has been faced with. As they bear the stamp of evolution (and therefore, environment), they are quite studiable and comprehendible. After all, they are what we need in order to survive (our environments) . . . and we can see them mostly prefigured in other species (especially in other apes).

The way the ego perceives the Self and its interactions with the Self (narratively, anthropomorphically, projectively, numinously, etc) is, I believe, the foundation of "mysticism".  But when we examine many of the common mystical transformation experiences, we see that they cluster around rites of passage . . . mostly ones that involve a change in relationship between oneself and others or between the individual and the tribe.  The end of adolescence, courtship/partnership/marriage/mating, a group-advocated role for the individual in the tribe, parenthood, old-age/retirement from certain social duties, illness and death . . . all of these stages call for different individual strategies, different ways of relating to the tribe.  Each redefines the individual in relationship to the group.  Each is part (an archetypal part) of human sociality . . . and similar stages can be observed in other social animals.  We understand in these animals that such stages are instinctually rooted.  Our phenomenological experience of the archetypal unconscious indicates that we are every bit as subject to such instincts.  We merely experience them as mysteriously compelling narratives, "Callings", visions, personages, spirits, etc.

But how does the chimpanzee experience its instinctual drives?  We know primarily that certain behaviors are compelled.  It is the same with humans, but we have special access to our own imaginations . . . in which instinctual forces are portrayed as gods or synchronicities or some kind of spiritual phenomena.  How else would we experience these instincts?  Instincts are like "wills", and we think of will as a human trait, we see it anthropomorphically.  If something is "willing" us, exerting influence on us . . . it must have consciousness, intention, intelligence, desire, libido, selfhood.  This is how our projective consciousness sees things: in relation to itself.

. . .

The emergence of the ego from the Self/unconscious is a process that almost definitely has a neurological component.  Our brains continue to grow and "wire" themselves throughout our childhood.  We gradually develop a sense of self with which we confront (and fend off) the world and its rules, orders, and others.  Human children, as you know better than me, are extremely vulnerable and incapable of defending themselves or surviving without parental protection (as compared to many [all?] other animals).  Between this innate, long-term frailty and the abstract complexity of human society, a child's primary "concern" (an unconscious concern) is self-fortification.  Self-fortification is a basic way of adapting to an environment (especially when one has no power whatsoever in that environment).  The child is compelled to develop a sense of self that integrates as painlessly as possible into the human world . . . and this requires strategic thinking.  How do I obtain the resources (e.g., love, protection, food, gratification of desires, respect, etc.) I want?

Children are innately brilliant strategists.  At extremely early ages, they are able to intuitively figure out how to manipulate adults (especially the parents) into providing what they (the children) desire.  I know I was a very devious strategist as a small child.  My brother (13 years younger than me) was perhaps even better.  My two year old son is incredibly willful, already realizing he will be able to outlast most declarations of parental "discipline".

I believe that as we grow up, we simply develop increasingly complex strategies to deal with our increasingly complex group environments (of course, some of us don't; sometimes we stick to "infantile strategies" . . . which the Freudians have a special knack for spotting).  But these strategies serve the same general purpose as an infant's strategies: they serve to protect us and give us the best possible access to resources.

Yet the process of ego construction tends to orient the individual to the group, the group that is made up of laws, hierarchies, challenging relationships, numerous closed doors that one wishes were open, etc.  This orientation tends to take us away from our instinctual foundations.  We no longer think of ourselves as organisms that have flesh (or are one with their flesh . . . even our body obsessions like "body-building" are fraught with a kind of abstraction or detachment).  Our sense of self is entirely strategic, made up of stories, abstract rules and formulas, arbitrary superfluities.

We (as egos) have emerged from the unconscious, but we have simultaneously lost of foundations, our source of sustenance and libido, our feeling of connection to things (matter itself, as opposed to laws and rules and abstract notions).  We have many myths about this, most famously (in our culture) the biblical story of the Fall from Eden.  Of course this particular myth seems to correspond with the moment of realization that we are no longer being provided for by the unconscious (and perhaps the tribe, as well).  Yet many people function quite adequately in human society without any consciousness that they have lost something "primal" or "divine".

Most of us don't realize we have "fallen from Eden" until our ego-strategies start to break down, no longer functioning as protections and resource accessors in our societies.  To place this stage in an "instinctual time-line", I would guess it corresponds to the end of adolescence.  I believe we have acquired/formulated almost all of our ego strategies by the end of adolescence.  Most later developments (that aren't restructurings guided by instinct) are merely adaptations of adolescent strategies to "adult" scenarios.  At the end of adolescence we are at the peak of our socialization . . . although we are typically unconscious of how we have been formed.  Our modern societies allow this state of adolescence to be perpetuated almost indefinitely.

But our instincts have other plans.  I think we have an instinct to segue from adolescence (in which we are highly socialized, but in an unconscious, dependent way) to adulthood (a redefinition of one's relationship to the tribe in which one acquires specific social responsibilities).  The adolescent individual (even if s/he is 50 years old) is still dependent on the providence of the unconscious, still has a child/parent relationship with the unconscious.  This is hardly practical, especially when ego construction has pulled one so far away from one's instinctual foundation.  The umbilical cord is stretched to its limit.  After it breaks, the ego's attitude of dependency will become increasingly dysfunctional and probably lead to neuroses (and the proverbial "mid-life crisis" is the most common manifestation of this delayed adolescence in our society).

But instinct provides a transition here from parent to partner.  The instinct manifests as a powerfully compelling desire to gravitate toward the partner, a "mystical partner" who seems to desire something heroic and individualistic out of us.  This partner Calls us.  The Calling is a calling away from the parental, providential/dependent relationship to the unconscious and toward an interactive, conscious, personally responsible relationship to the unconscious (to one's instincts . . . but also to others in the material world).  Jung called this instinct the anima/animus.

The thing about these archetypal instincts is that they do not just compel us inwardly, but "insist" on being projected outward and onto others.  My guess is that this is precisely how all instincts "feel" to all animals.  Something willful inside bursts out and compels the animal to act upon the Call.  In this case, to find a mate.  But whereas other animals follow these instincts and move more or less gracefully from adolescence to mating to having and raising offspring, we humans frequently break down.  Our instinctual drives are not always easily integrated into our complex cultures and groups structures.  Our mating rituals are still extremely instinctual, but we have a terrible time giving up on old, adolescent or infantile ego strategies.

We might want a partner who loves us "for who we really are".  But we may also be used to relating to our "love interests" like a child relates to a parent (as "resource-providers").  We might also fall in love with our instinctual projection, our mystical partner, but never be able to coordinate this with real human others in the world.

Tribal cultures have generally developed rites and rituals that help transition us through these stages, these passages.  The tribe acknowledges and sanctifies these passages.  But modern society does not have very effective rites of passage.  Instead, we have psychotherapy!  But it is a radically imperfect system . . . and not one available to everyone.  It brings all kinds of problems into the passage that don't exist in tribal, ritual cultures.  Transference, for instance.  Transference (or we could call it Eros) works more or less harmlessly during the rites of tribal cultures, because the entire tribe is responsive to it, and the formalities of the ritual conduct it, give it a kind of specific shape, a conduit. The ritual allows the transference to be guided, to be turned on and shut off at the proper moments.  But in psychotherapies, this transference is often too volatile to be properly conducted by the therapist.  It can become destructive or inflating . . . which is why the Freudians try to steel themselves against it at all costs.  The Jungians have a more participatory tactic, but I still think they are in over their heads much of the time.  Transference is still not adequately understood . . . probably because the notion has been divorced from biology and instinct and abstracted into a very intellectual realm.

In any case, I have already gone on far too long about this.  I have written about the transition from parental to partner unconscious elsewhere: Agism and the Animi in the Jungian Mindset.  And I have talked about the animi work on a number of threads.  So I will leave off here.

Yours,
Matt

You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Malcolm Timbers

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 04:31:55 PM »
If the ego did not split off from instinct, we would still be animals. Consciousness is the only thing that serarates man from the beasts. However, I realize that animals do possess a consciousness of sorts, but it is not very well developed. What appears as animal consciousness could be attributed to archetypes. Unlike humans, most animals seem to possess no "conscious" awareness outside their nature.

Sealchan

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 11:46:14 AM »
From a purely comparative mythological and Jungian psychological standpoint, it has been claimed that the ego developed to resolve conflicts of instinct as embodied in the individual body.  Neumann pointed at the uroboros (a serpent forming a circle and eating its own tail) as the central symbol of the nature of the relationship of the ego-consciousness to the unconscious.  This symbol points to the following miraculous characteristics of this relationship: 1) the ordered ego-consciousness is born out of the chaos of the unconscious, 2) the ego attempts to separate from the unconscious (the ground of its own power and being), 3) the ego gradually conquers the overwhelming powers of the unconscious by discrimination (fragmentation) of the contents of the unconscious via symbols, 4) the ego digests the contents of the unconscious in order to transform them into readily available sources of energy (disposable will-libido) and 5) the ego must willingly re-enter the darkness of the unconscious, re-unite with it, in order to accomplish 4) and 5).

To me this evokes an analogy of a complex adaptive system with the ego as some form of emergent activity (out of a massive collective of interconnected neural units which interact via an electro-chemical media) which arises, stabilizes that which it arises from, grows its influence/ordering of until it maximally orders (in the context of an open, dynamic system) the psyche as a whole in dynamic relationship to the world to which it must adapt and has been designed as an adaptation to.  The ego is an evolved, neurological phenomenon that is adaptive to the overlapping realms of neurological function, language-culture and external physical world.  I find it fascinating that through a comparative analysis of the contents of myths and dreams via Jung's terminology for the phenominology of psyche that one can come to an analogy that fits in so well with what has evolved from systems thinking into complex adapative systems in only the last 30ish years.

Keri

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 07:39:37 PM »
The idea that the Ego is actually part of a complex adaptive system and "meant" to be adaptive resonates with me because they've found the phenomenon of emergence everywhere they look in complex, open systems (though I haven't kept up with the complexity or systems literature for a long time).  It is fascinating, and far from taking the mystery and "sacredness" out of it for me, this just adds to its elegance.

I would note, though, that we are in fact animals.  I think that's part of what Matt and others here have been writing - that we've tried to separate and devalue that aspect of ourselves.
O gather up the brokenness
And bring it to me now . . .

Behold the gates of mercy
In arbitrary space
And none of us deserving
The cruelty or the grace

O solitude of longing
Where love has been confined
Come healing of the body
Come healing of the mind
  - Leonard Cohen, "Come Healing"

Let me be in the service of my Magic, and let my Magic be Good Medicine.  -- Dominique Christina

Kafiri

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 08:31:15 AM »
Excellent point Keri!  While I am not qualified to completely understand "self-organizing" systems, or "emergent" systems(they are not the same) I speculate that these concepts will greatly expand our understanding the psyche.  I am particularly interested in "phase transitions."  I once emailed a well-known expert on phase transitions and asked if the shift between consciousness and unconsciousness could be a phase transition.  He thought it was a great question, but had no answer for me.

For readers here who are not familiar with "self-organizing and emergent" systems here is a readable primer:  http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm#2.3

And like you Keri I find these concepts both beautifully mysterious and awe inspiring; your term "elegant" is perfect.
"We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves."
      -Eric Hoffer

Matt Koeske

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 02:01:37 PM »
For readers here who are not familiar with "self-organizing and emergent" systems here is a readable primer:  http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm#2.3

Holy jargon!

It's a very interesting field, but man, what is the deal with the systems-speak?  (-)laugh(-)

To the very limited degree I can understand this stuff (which is pretty much restricted to emergence) it seems to have a lot of correlation with psychology.  I also wonder whether dreams might not be like observations of self-organizing systems at work.
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Keri

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 03:09:39 PM »
I would note, though, that we are in fact animals.  I think that's part of what Matt and others here have been writing - that we've tried to separate and devalue that aspect of ourselves.

Malcolm, this little one-liner looks slightly harsher to my eyes this morning than when I wrote it last night.  I should have at least said "hello" first! :)  I tend to err on the side of explaining too little.  I do believe that we are still animals (and I mean nothing derogatory when I use that word).  I feel that it isn't helpful to me to try to understand things without that perspective.  I think we evolved just like any other creature here, and our current level of consciousness should somehow be able to be accounted for by this process.  Matt's initial essay helps me in this regard (ie, to better see how this may have come about).

Also, if I ever misquote or misunderstand/misrepresent someone else's ideas when I'm making a point, don't hesitate to correct me!

Yours, Keri
O gather up the brokenness
And bring it to me now . . .

Behold the gates of mercy
In arbitrary space
And none of us deserving
The cruelty or the grace

O solitude of longing
Where love has been confined
Come healing of the body
Come healing of the mind
  - Leonard Cohen, "Come Healing"

Let me be in the service of my Magic, and let my Magic be Good Medicine.  -- Dominique Christina

Kafiri

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 05:16:01 PM »

Quote from: Matt Koeske

For readers here who are not familiar with "self-organizing and emergent" systems here is a readable primer:  http://www.calresco.org/sos/sosfaq.htm#2.3


Holy jargon!

It's a very interesting field, but man, what is the deal with the systems-speak?  (-)laugh(-)

To the very limited degree I can understand this stuff (which is pretty much restricted to emergence) it seems to have a lot of correlation with psychology.  I also wonder whether dreams might not be like observations of self-organizing systems at work.


Oh give me a break!!!  This from the guy who uses  italicized alchemical phrases with abandon!!! (-)dogma(-) (-)howdy(-) LOL!!!

Matt,

Here is a quote that should interest you.  It is the conclusion from an article relating Evolutionary Psychology and Complex Systems.  I like it because it relates to the quote I have used from Jung about spiritual development leading to "a complexity of mind":
Quote

Conclusion

A complexity view of mind would say that it operates at ' edge-of-chaos' <http://www.calresco.org/perturb.htm>, a point where we would expect to find modularity <http://www.calresco.org/lucas/fitness.htm#syn> and functions of different scales cooperating to maintain a coherent whole. This view is close to that of evolutionary psychology and the two can complement each other, as does complexity and evolutionary biology. Complexity science gives a systems overview <http://www.calresco.org/lucas/philos.htm> on what we would expect to find in the mind as a complex system, and we can look to EP to experimentally verify predictions at the higher emergent levels, as does neurophysiology at the lower neuronal connectivity levels.

The Evolutionary Psychology emphasis on history and on adaptability is the welcome addition of dynamics to what has often seemed a static field, divorced from the biology on which it is undoubtably based. This reflects a similar move in Artificial Intelligence towards an environmentally situated mode of working, where actions take place in a context without conscious thought or abstract symbolism. All these ideas fit in with a view of complex systems as embodied coevolutionary partners in a multifaceted environmen <thttp://www.calresco.org/lucas/pmo.htm.>
Found at:  http://www.calresco.org/lucas/evolpsy.htm

And since you are looking for a "new" language that might help us along in expanding Jung's work, here a couple of terms that might be "new" to you that relate to where the quote above says about our minds operating at the edge of chaos: http://www.chaordic.org/definitions.html
Remember you heard it here first.
"We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves."
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Matt Koeske

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 05:34:07 PM »
Oh give me a break!!!  This from the guy who uses  italicized alchemical phrases with abandon!!! (-)dogma(-) (-)howdy(-) LOL!!!

I plead the 5th!  (-)dev2(-)

But I still say that long list of terms was pretty intimidating.  At least there weren't as many equations as there are in quantum physics.

But hey, Solve et Coagula, I guess.

-Matt
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Malcolm Timbers

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2007, 12:27:37 AM »
Keri said, "Malcolm, this little one-liner looks slightly harsher to my eyes this morning than when I wrote it last night.  I should have at least said "hello" first!"

Hi Keri. I am not easily offended, so no need to walk on eggs around me.

Agreed that humans are animals, but with a small appendage of an ego attached.

One thing that needs to be kept in mind with regards to the ego is that it is totally dependent upon the whims of the unconscious, aka God, which is why we habitually address the unconscious as "God" in the first place. When we become unconscious it is as if we have momentarily become God. And this God can be rather annoying at times as we know.

Sealchan

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 05:18:17 PM »
My quick glossary (those words I have an intuitive take on) on systems/complex adaptive systems:

Feedback: the property of a system that reinforces (positive) or counters (negative) a specific movement of energy.  This is one of the simplest forms of how order can be seen to emerge in a system of "dumb" parts

Whole/parts: often the defining distinction drawn between a systems view and other (often characterized as reductionist) perspectives is that in looking at something as a system there is often the sense that the whole is more than the some of its parts.  That this is true is because there are properties of a system which emerge due to how the individual parts interact.  The parts, taken as individual pieces of the whole puzzle, cannot, in any way give rise to the phenomenon seen in the context of the whole. 

This rather broad metaphor probably underlies a fundamental, new intuition that will be obvious in retrospect but that currently suffers acceptance because mathematics works best when the system it represents is broken down into a few enough parts that the human mind can comprehend.  However, with the advent of computers systems theory has been transformed into something more like a science (in much the same vein as Chaos theory was born) because computers can do math so much better than we can, we can use computers to simulate large scale interactions of parts and actually capture emergent qualities in the lab, so to speak.  The "Game of Life" is the usual exemplar of emergent phenomenon seen in computer simulations.

Emergent: this is close to the vernacular  (-)laugh(-) meaning a quality in a system that arises from the system and not from a particular part of the system.  It is often considered as a part of the system that cannot be reduced to a property of anything less than that whole system.

What follows is a Stuart Kauffman take on complex adaptive systems: In most models of complex adaptive systems, you have the idea of a large number (implying complex) of well-defined units interacting in a world (also well-defined) according to a specific set of rules.  What has been found is that the combination of these three elements in a such a way that orderly and chaotic forms are balanced gives rise to emergent (adaptive) responses.  Ironically, this also gives rise to the idea that complexity reduces to the mathematics of large numbers.  Although many would argue back and forth about the vices and virtues of systems thinking vs reductionism, the reality, IMHO, is that these are two sides to a coin which one can use to make valuable purchases of new knowledge.  Really, the recognition of emergent phenomenon is, possibly, the greatest leap forward in understanding the world since mathematics was used to help define physical law. 

In fact, this recognition of systemic properties as such and the availability of computers to model those properties may be as profound a change on human knowledge as writing was when introduced to otherwise oral cultures.  In other words, what was only magic to the human mind before will become science to the computer-assisted mind of the future.  This is analogous to how human knowledge is really amplified for the individual by the existence of libraries we can individually access (and store) information from no matter how much improved the memories were of practiced members of an oral culture.

So the trick here in application to Jung's phenomenology of mind is to find the complex adaptive system by finding the familiar pattern of emergent order.  The first candidate here is the symbol of the collective unconscious.  Between the chaos of unconsciousness and the order of consciousness, it is the archetypal symbols which "live" in a realm where the two are best balanced. 

Sealchan

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 05:44:16 PM »
The idea of ego as emerging from the unconscious fits in with the idea of complex adapative systems because emergent phenomenon are what complex adaptive systems are all about.  To recognize that phenomenon arise from how a system is put together is to create a whole new realm to explore for answers to otherwise endlessly perplexing questions.  If the ego is how the "unconscious" or original psyche has been able to balance the forces of order (instinctual gratification) and chaos (challenges to that order, conflicts of instinct, delays of gratification, environmental challenges (individual and cultural)) by forming persistant patterns of neural behavior in response to that world, then the substance of what the ego is, is purely in the patterns of how neurons have come to fire in our brains.  This is both an emergent (spiritual, cultural) and embodied (natural) perspective on how the mind and brain relate.  As part of the complex adapative system that is the mind, it should be recognized that our society or culture nurtures this development in a vital way.  Physically and genetically we are little different than our ancestors who had yet to invent the wheel...our consciousness is embodied in our language, our beliefs and our technologies. 



Keri

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Re: Emergence of the Ego from the Unconscious
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2007, 04:02:48 PM »
In my memory from a long time ago:

"The edge of chaos is where life has enough stability to sustain itself and enough creativity to deserve the name life."

I've always liked that quote.  I'll dig around for the source.  It may have been Stuart Kauffman, but I'm not sure of that.

 :) Keri
O gather up the brokenness
And bring it to me now . . .

Behold the gates of mercy
In arbitrary space
And none of us deserving
The cruelty or the grace

O solitude of longing
Where love has been confined
Come healing of the body
Come healing of the mind
  - Leonard Cohen, "Come Healing"

Let me be in the service of my Magic, and let my Magic be Good Medicine.  -- Dominique Christina