Author Topic: Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation  (Read 45044 times)

Matt Koeske

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Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation
« on: March 21, 2007, 08:44:16 AM »
It's interesting that almost all animus fairytales are about "redeeming" the animus (accepting his darkness or lifting him out of it) . . . whereas anima fairytales are usually about rescuing or "winning" the anima.  I wonder what this says about our culture and its gender/sex differences.

-Matt
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Rohche

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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 09:28:50 PM »
At the risk of sounding sexist (God help me!), I think it might have to do with a difference in masculine and feminine psychology.  Men have to fight the dragon and all that, whereas women seem to have to accept or endure more.  Anyway, something like that, don’t you think?

Matt Koeske

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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 10:02:06 AM »
At the risk of sounding sexist (God help me!), I think it might have to do with a difference in masculine and feminine psychology.  Men have to fight the dragon and all that, whereas women seem to have to accept or endure more.  Anyway, something like that, don’t you think?

I'm just not sure if this dynamic is innate.  It is definitely supported by culture . . . and perhaps even created by culture.  I suspect it has a great deal to do with the "Patriarchal Mindset" . . . which, among many other things, strikes me as an attempt by men to aggressively seize the "rights" to ego psychology for themselves, but not for women (or anyone else they deem other).  What I mean is that the patriarchy claims that men, in effect, have an ego separate from the Self/unconscious . . . whereas women are thought to have an ego still bound to and confused with the unconscious (I completely disagree with this, by the way).

So, when we look at the dragon/monster slaying myths, what we are seeing (in my opinion) is not a male or masculine rite of passage.  More fundamentally, we are seeing the dramatization of the ego's severance from the unconscious.  From this act on, the patriarchal ego becomes increasingly dissociated from the the unconscious and begins to fall in love with its own imagined power and supremacy.

My reasoning behind the claim that this is not male-specific, is that, obviously, men and women both share this construction of ego psychology.  Women don't have submerged or partially developed egos.  But part of the patriarchal construction of gender is to imprison women by chaining them to the unconscious like a dog might be chained to a tree (The Goddess Tree, perhaps?).

This act not only subordinates women to men, but it allows patriarchal men to have a kind of "controlled relationship" to the unconscious . . . through the chained woman.  His sex drive (confused terribly with his power drive) continues to draw him to the woman, where he can not only sate his sexual desires, but also touch the unconscious briefly through her.  He then becomes dependent on the woman (and by extension, the Feminine) for his contact with the unconscious . . . which is the ultimate source of libido renewal and recycling.

We can logically extrapolate from this proposed paradigm that the myth of the man who wants to make a deeper, ego-sacrificing communion with the unconscious/Self must first learn how to unchain the woman/Feminine from the role of "gateway" (was it Tertullian or Origen who referred to women as the "Devil's Gateway"?).  This freeing of the Feminine allows it to rise up to equal status with the masculine.  But this act usually requires the battle with and defeat of the patriarchal shadow, who is the archetypal jailer of the Feminine.

Also, there is an umbilically linked complication to this freeing process (which is where men really stumble): the freed woman/Feminine no longer acts as the gateway to the unconscious.  The man then has to become his own gateway.  But what happens typically (and this would be called "anima-obsession or possession" in Jungian terms) is that the man cannot envision himself as such a gateway; he cannot see communion with the unconscious as possible without the woman/Feminine.  So he rushes to free her . . . only to immediately imprison her again (this time with his "love").  Or else, he frees her, but then she disappears or "dies", and he is left depressed and bereft in a puddle, not knowing what he can do for himself, merely longing for her return one day.

In this sense, the anima-obsessed man has begun valuing the Feminine, but cannot throw off the patriarchal mindset . . . and so he can't progress any farther.

But this would seem to give a psychological reason for the preponderance of myths and fairytales that involve the male hero rescuing the imprisoned princess from some sort of monster.

But from a woman's perspective, the battle against patriarchalism, the battle for consciousness is fought from a different perspective.  There she is, imprisoned.  What is she to do?  Well, she might fantasize of a Prince Charming coming to rescue her . . . but that ends up being a patrairachal myth.  It keeps her in the position of object, of will-less creature, of raw material.  As it turns out, Prince Charming is an element of the very patrairachal force that imprisons her.

So, to get beyond that, she has to seek out the "anti-Prince Charming".  She has to find the masculine that has been lost and largely destroyed by patriarchal consciousness.  Sometimes, this dark masculine or shadow-animus is associated with her imprisonment (as in "Beauty and the Beast" . . . or King Kong).  But her quest is to find the humanness in this shadow . . . to make an act of differentiation between the the imprisoning patriarchal masculine and the imprisoned patriarchal masculine (somewhere, buried in the animus is a masculinity just as imprisoned as she is).

So we see a lot of beasts, ogres, gnomes, and animal or part animal bridegrooms in women's individuation myths and dreams.  It isn't that the woman need to learn to love the patriarchy (I'm reminded of the subtitle of Dr. Strangelove: "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb") . . . it's that she needs to delve into the shadow of the patriarchy to rediscover the lost masculine, the masculine that has been buried and wounded by the patriarchy as much as she has.  There she finds her twin, and in healing him, forgiving him, or lifting him up, she redeems the animus . . . allowing him to become what I sometimes refer to as the "True Masculine".  That is, the Masculine that is not opposed to the Feminine or its power. 

This True Masculine was an element of the Goddess religions in which it was represented by the Goddess's consort.  He is the vegetation god, the prototype of the godman who dies and is reborn like the sown seed.  He does not connect to nature through the feminine, but directly.  He is a "natural" thing, functioning by nature's principles . . . unlike the ego, which is non-corporeal and abstract.

But what is interesting (and maybe worth reiterating) is that the act of redeeming the animus is done, typically, through an act of conscious differentiation.  In myths and fairytales we sometimes see this as sorting impossible numbers of beans or peas, as in Cinderella or the myth of Psyche and Eros (where the heroines must rely on some assistance from their unconscious . . . as this differentiating intelligence is just being born out of the Other).  But this differentiation might also be simply an innate ability of the heroine to recognize the good in an animus figure who appears monstrous and evil on the outside.

Not to overly complicate this, but I think it's also worth noting that many women's individuation stories portray the heroine's jailer as a devouring mother figure or wicked stepmother (ususally in these the father has died or "lost his soul" and first wife and lovelessly remarried).  This dark mother figure is every bit as patriarchal as the demonic male jailer . . . and it is a sad "truth" that most of the patriarchal conditioning women receive is handed down to them from their mothers or from other women.

My apologies for meandering here, I had to think through this . . . but I believe this analysis above is pretty sound.  What do you think, Rohche (and anyone else, for that matter)?  Does any of this seem plausible to you?

Also, Maria, if you read this, I think you will have some reflections to add.

Yours,
Matt

You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Roger

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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 12:49:04 PM »

My apologies for meandering here, I had to think through this . . . but I believe this analysis above is pretty sound.  What do you think, Rohche (and anyone else, for that matter)?  Does any of this seem plausible to you?

Yours,
Matt


Matt,

you are not alone to think/feel along that line. What you say is sound indeed. By this I mean that though I would use different words I share this with you.

I am too tired at the moment to say more.

Best

Roger
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 01:10:42 PM by Roger »

Matt Koeske

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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 02:01:08 PM »
Matt,

you are not alone to think/feel along that line. What you say is sound indeed. By this I mean that though I would use different words I share this with you.

I am too tired at the moment to say more.

Best

Roger

Thank you, Roger.  I appreciate that. 

I have an "extruded" way of writing/posting.  If I only had it all figured out and a little note card with my personal dogmas in my breast pocket at all times, I could probably express my intuitions and feelings with concision  (-)elchalo(-).

But the unconscious refuses to lend me the brainpower needed to "master" knowledge.  I end up having to rethink and rediscover ideas every time I use them or get an intuitive notion.  I have to go to it and say, "OK, what is it you are trying to tell me?"  And it will reply, "Pick up you pen or sit down at your keyboard and write, and I will show you where I am."

It's like the children's game we used to call "Marco Polo".  The blindfolded seeker tries to locate the others through a process of call and response.  He says, "Marco" and the others must reply, "Polo" even as they move around.  Talking to the Self is like that.  You can't think with your ego.  The ego has to be blind.  Instead, you think in terms of relationality ("where am I in relation to It?  Now where am I . . . and now?").

What a shame for Jung that, upon seeing his blind Salome anima, he decided her blindness meant "she does not see the meaning of things."

Yours,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

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Roger

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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2007, 04:13:09 PM »

What a shame for Jung that, upon seeing his blind Salome anima, he decided her blindness meant "she does not see the meaning of things."

Yours,
Matt

Yes, definitely, but Salome was not his anima... She was much more than that. (http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_wedding_alchemy_jung_quaternity_ch5p35_e.htm)

I am working on something in reply to your 'Illness as a dream figure'

Love

Roger

Maria

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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 06:33:51 PM »
(Dear Matt,

Quote
Also, Maria, if you read this, I think you will have some reflections to add.

oh yes, Matt, surely I do! And, although not a real film, only an adaptation of a musical, I would like to add The Phantom of the Opera to the list.

Quote
But from a woman's perspective, the battle against patriarchalism, the battle for consciousness is fought from a different perspective.  There she is, imprisoned.  What is she to do?  Well, she might fantasize of a Prince Charming coming to rescue her . . . but that ends up being a patrairachal myth.  It keeps her in the position of object, of will-less creature, of raw material.  As it turns out, Prince Charming is an element of the very patrairachal force that imprisons her.

Yes, Prince Charming and the Warden or Oppressor are the same (just as Christine first believes the Phantom to be the Angel of Music), as they are called to life by the same inner dynamic, which can go on and on for years “I am imprisoned and I need to be saved, I am saved and I am imprisoned again and need to be saved” and so on ad finitum. Until one accepts to have a power of her own, one can wait forever in the subway station waiting for Prince Charming to descend and “elevate” us, instead of climbing the steps ourselves.

Quote
So we see a lot of beasts, ogres, gnomes, and animal or part animal bridegrooms in women's individuation myths and dreams.  It isn't that the woman need to learn to love the patriarchy (I'm reminded of the subtitle of Dr. Strangelove: "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb") . . . it's that she needs to delve into the shadow of the patriarchy to rediscover the lost masculine, the masculine that has been buried and wounded by the patriarchy as much as she has.  There she finds her twin, and in healing him, forgiving him, or lifting him up, she redeems the animus . . . allowing him to become what I sometimes refer to as the "True Masculine".  That is, the Masculine that is not opposed to the Feminine or its power.


And I understood it only now that it is not by chance that Christine is helped by Raoul, her lost-re-found childhood friend...

and yes, the animus seems to be a figure not only split, but dispersed in the unconscious... and also, perhaps, the stages of one’s perception of the father as the first model for the animus, how he changes from, eg, the omnipotent-omniscient benevolent protector (early childhood) to the controlling patriarch (teenage years) or the cruel, sadistic one who tortures by his distance, and so on, are not or not necessarily perceived as “change”, but each of these phases, like snapshots, stay as they are and have their own lives until they are consciously united. Just musing, of course.

Quote
So, to get beyond that, she has to seek out the "anti-Prince Charming".  She has to find the masculine that has been lost and largely destroyed by patriarchal consciousness.  Sometimes, this dark masculine or shadow-animus is associated with her imprisonment (as in "Beauty and the Beast" . . . or King Kong).  But her quest is to find the humanness in this shadow . . . to make an act of differentiation between the the imprisoning patriarchal masculine and the imprisoned patriarchal masculine (somewhere, buried in the animus is a masculinity just as imprisoned as she is).

And also, the wounded beast is a beast, not a fluffy little rabbit. I mean that it does have potential power and strength, the beast is not a harmless, unprotected creature per se. That is something those women who want to save men forget about. That their own animus is wounded, and not born or destined to be an eternal child. It is not a mother the wounded animus needs, as he was wounded exactly by the mother. “Healing” is not bending down to an inferior being out of charity. Healing is a task one has to elevate herself to, so to say.

Quote
Not to overly complicate this, but I think it's also worth noting that many women's individuation stories portray the heroine's jailer as a devouring mother figure or wicked stepmother (ususally in these the father has died or "lost his soul" and first wife and lovelessly remarried).  This dark mother figure is every bit as patriarchal as the demonic male jailer . . . and it is a sad "truth" that most of the patriarchal conditioning women receive is handed down to them from their mothers or from other women.

I completely agree, Matt!!!

Love,

Maria)
"Thou speak'st aright;
I am that merry wanderer of the night."

(Puck)

Roger

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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2007, 06:47:25 PM »
“Healing” is not bending down to an inferior being out of charity. Healing is a task one has to elevate herself to, so to say.

Maria)

I love so much when people talk out of their guts, letting the flow of their experience piss...  :)

Love, Maria!

Roger

Rohche

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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 09:39:24 PM »
Whoa! Whoa!   Matt, Roger, Maria, I wasn’t talking about the battle of the sexes on an ego or cultural level, or about jailers or half submerged egos, or anything like that.  I was getting at a possible difference in modes of transcendence, about a possible difference in how the light out of the darkness is derived.  My thought was that one of the ways of achieving this is in the act of joining the opposites, of joining the light to the dark, from which something new is gained.  The other is more an enduring the tension of opposites, a containing the light and darkness, until some thing new comes about. 

Am I wrong?  Are these these modes of transcendence the same or are they different?   I really don’t know.  If they are different, could one be considered masculine and the other feminine?   The tales seem to support a difference in mode of transformation.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 10:14:28 PM by Rohche »

Maria

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2007, 05:43:33 AM »
(Dear Roche,

 ;)

Quote
My thought was that one of the ways of achieving this is in the act of joining the opposites, of joining the light to the dark, from which something new is gained.  The other is more an enduring the tension of opposites, a containing the light and darkness, until some thing new comes about.

I imagine this not as an either-or thing. I would rather say that these are parallel, and, instead of masculine-feminine, perhaps I would call them transforming-assimilating, or something like that.

I am just musing here, but as an INFP, I would say that my "heroic" functions are intuition and feeling, my primary functions, they fight, discover, differentiate and "join the light to the dark", while in the background, my inferior functions, thinking and sensation, are processing and assimilating the experiences, struggle to "contain the light and darkness", so that my heroic functions can take me further.

this is just an idea that came to my mind while staring in the rain this morning. tell me what you think.

Love,

Maria)
"Thou speak'st aright;
I am that merry wanderer of the night."

(Puck)

Roger

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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2007, 08:41:07 AM »

I am just musing here, but as an INFP, I would say that my "heroic" functions are intuition and feeling, my primary functions, they fight, discover, differentiate and "join the light to the dark", while in the background, my inferior functions, thinking and sensation, are processing and assimilating the experiences, struggle to "contain the light and darkness", so that my heroic functions can take me further.

this is just an idea that came to my mind while staring in the rain this morning. tell me what you think.

Love,

Maria)

Well actually i don't know where to post that for it relates also with my reply to Matt http://uselessscience.com/forum/index.php?topic=92.msg294#msg294

Truely enough the orientation of the personality is important, but mostly to my mind as refer to the way we express things from the moment we really get deeply involved into the process. but not before though.

I have a bit of a problem here myself as I discovered that for quite a few years now, each time I take a personality test, the results show that my four functions are almost par, and my introvert/extravert 'position' varies according to the needs of the situation. I know this is past Jungian beliefs, but then...

So what I will try to say is that:

If we go deep enough we are not dealing anymore with the archetypes as patterns of the "collective unconscious" but with forces, entities beyond any sexual distinction.

If you have the experience and think a little about it you will see that 'animus' and 'anima' behave in a very similar way in depth but what is different is the way their effects are incarnated in the different beings.

If we go to the structural dimension and accept that along Jung's definition these two when they are 'integrated' are meant to be the channel of inner creativity (the psychopomp) and if we have the opportunity to compare experiences then we realise that they are the same.

Maria told me that she has a very erotic relation to her thinking creativity. One could say that this is due to an enough integrated animus behaving as the psychopomp. But the point is that, as a man, I have the same relation!

So let's get a little bit deeper then.

(Maria and I were discussing about the archetypes lately, I think her musings are relevant here...)

What does it point at precisely?

As you surely know Jung said that at the 'end' of the archetypes opposite to consciousness we reach what he called the psychoid, something he could not fathom himself for i guess the time was not ripe either for him as an individual or for humankind. He was reopening a way and let the exploration and modern understanding of what the Hermetic alchemists called 'Unio corporalis' to people to come. (see my remark about Salome http://uselessscience.com/forum/index.php?topic=78.msg293#msg293).

'Unio corporalis' is exactly entering the psychoid dimension (the 'Unus Mundus') through the body, or rather by letting our body 'talk' to 'us', that is to say far from the thinking dimension of 'analysis'.

There, at this very psychophysical level,  we discover that we are dealing with energy, a force deeply imbeded into the other side of matter. That's where the archetypes perceived as patterns of the collective unconscious are springing from using the natural channel of human psyche to transform the being and bring her/him to incarnate in her/his life this energy.

For sure, we are far from the Jungian unilateral definition of the Self (rather something like 'unio mentalis'), a definition limited by what Jung himself could reach.

What happens then if we go through that gate is that we do not get in touch with archetypal images refering to patterns of the collective unconscious but with the source itself. And what might be strange is that the only 'wish' of that source is that we let it come up, spring through us one way or another, according to our personnal 'bumps' and 'hollows', but this is a very unifying process. I will dare say that the 'fight' with the archetypes themselves is not 'needed' any more. The flow carries everything and we are 'cleaned' as long as we let it happen.

More to come, maybe...

Love

Roger
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 12:04:41 PM by Roger »

Matt Koeske

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Re: Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2007, 11:07:41 AM »
Whoa! Whoa!   Matt, Roger, Maria, I wasn’t talking about the battle of the sexes on an ego or cultural level, or about jailers or half submerged egos, or anything like that.  I was getting at a possible difference in modes of transcendence, about a possible difference in how the light out of the darkness is derived.  My thought was that one of the ways of achieving this is in the act of joining the opposites, of joining the light to the dark, from which something new is gained.  The other is more an enduring the tension of opposites, a containing the light and darkness, until some thing new comes about. 

Am I wrong?  Are these these modes of transcendence the same or are they different?   I really don’t know.  If they are different, could one be considered masculine and the other feminine?   The tales seem to support a difference in mode of transformation.

Hi Rohche,

I apologize if I misunderstood the thrust of your idea.

I may need you to elaborate here to better understand and find a compatible language of my own to meet you half way.  But my guess is that you are making a differentiation between uniting the opposites (e.g., a coniunctio) and containing the opposites.  That's a distinction I never really made in the same way, so I will have to play catch-up a bit.

So, I may be firing a little randomly here, but well, here goes . . .

In my experience, the "containment" or perhaps "conscious endurance" of the tension between the opposites is primarily a metaphor for the observation/recognition that one ego-position or belief or idea can never be only one, but must also necessitate its opposite.  So, as Jung pursued the Christ symbol in Aion, he pretty clearly said that the belief in or creation of the Christ figure necessitated the Antichrist figure . . . which the Church was less willing to see as part of the godhead, but the Gnostics better embraced.  But of course, this recognition of the opposites occurs on much more mundane levels, too.

Such a recognition of the polarity of every position also seems to necessitate a new sense that one (the ego) cannot entirely be one thing without also being its Opposite (and bang! just like that we have the attraction or magnetism to the Opposite).  Which becomes a moral dilemma or a complex that can only be resolved by uniting the polarities (thesis and antithesis) into a synthesis, a third position that manages to incorporate thesis and antithesis and yet not be divided or in self-conflict.  Therefore the synthesis (the Third) is also a oneness.  (Which the alchemists expressed with the Axiom of Maria, where the third or threeness becomes a oneness which is the fourth . . . or a balanced wholeness; yes, I know Remo disagrees with this and calls for a whole of six . . . but this is already an overly-abstract side note).

The Divine Hermaphrodite of alchemy with the three (serpents or elements) transmuted into the one (golden serpent), which makes four (here I can't help but say, like The Count from Sesame Street, "Four!  Four Serpents! Ha ha ha!"):


But in this system, which is the Jungian and alchemical system of presenting the problem and resolution of the Opposites, the union is the completion of the recognition of containment/tension.

In my experience, the union/coniunctio is an archetypal paradigm applicable to men and women equally.  For that reason, I would be less inclined to try to map the coniunctio to men or the Masculine and the "containment" to women or the Feminine.

If I were to involve gender archetypes at all, I would probably be inclined to see the synthesis produced by the coniunctio oppositorum as a New Birth, and therefore, a new state produced out of the Feminine or through Feminine means . . . and not a construction or creation of the Masculine (as we might see archetypally construed in the biblical Genesis story of Creation).  In essence, Feminine birthing is a process governed my Nature, not Will. 

And, this accords with my experience of the alchemical opus (the first opus, at least) in which the Work (individuation) is guided almost entirely by surrendering ego-will to Nature.  I.e., the opus is an instinctual dynamic to which the ego increasingly submits.  So, in the symbolism of the first opus, we see the division of the Old King and the New King (for the male adept) representing the old egoistic position and the new ego position (respectively) that accords with the individuation instinct . . . or the Call of the ego into coordination with the Self.

 

But, this is just one language . . . and perhaps not the right or best one.  I suppose we could equally say that true "containment of the Opposites" in a oneness or synthesis follows and is facilitated by the union of Opposites.  But in this way of saying it, the sense of tension between Opposites is diminished, so containment is incompatible with tension.

What I've seen so far is that men and women tend to follow the same paradigm: recognition of the Opposites (a tension/attraction dynamic) -> union of the Opposites -> the product/synthesis of this union as a kind of rebirth or New Birth.

But please say more and let us get a better grasp on the language you are using to define your terms.  I'm not entirely sure we are talking about the same thing.

Yours,
Matt
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Matt Koeske

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Re: Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2007, 01:36:05 PM »

I made a whopping digression (yes, even for me  (-)monkbggrn(-)) part way through this post.  I don't know if it is really worth keeping, but I am going to hack it off and deposit it somewhere in the Alchemy and Mysticism board.  This rough cut leaves a kind of abrupt end to the post below.  Sorry about that.


I am just musing here, but as an INFP, I would say that my "heroic" functions are intuition and feeling, my primary functions, they fight, discover, differentiate and "join the light to the dark", while in the background, my inferior functions, thinking and sensation, are processing and assimilating the experiences, struggle to "contain the light and darkness", so that my heroic functions can take me further.

this is just an idea that came to my mind while staring in the rain this morning. tell me what you think.

Hi Maria,

Although, as you know I have been increasingly displeased with the typology of Jungian psychology, I believe I understand your observation and agree with it.  There is a sense that the modes of cognition/perception most consciously developed in us are the ones that have integrated the "dark" and the "light" best.

We could equally say that the consciousness developed in these "heroic" functions (and the hero is the archetype of consciousness) is developed through the heroic process of the coniunctio and rebirth (thesis, antithesis, synthesis).  So, what is heroic in our consciousness is what has been synthesized in the alchemical way.

So, hesitantly, I'll pick up the Jungian typological cross here to see if I can work inside this language . . . .  I think, within this paradigm, that "true consciousness" seems to work by unifying the functions that are oppositional to one another.  Most of Jungian thinking, then, takes place on the thinking/feeling axis . . . and we might see Jung's individuation dynamic as an attempt to alchemize these functions into a unified equilibrium (althouhg, perhaps without success). 

This (although not only this) encourages me to suspect that Jung's auxiliary functions were thinking and feeling.  After all, Jung did not concentrate on the unification of intuition and sensation, the possible and the actual.  I would say his personal relationship to the possible/actual dichotomy was divided.  So one one hand we see him championing the phenomenological approach to psychic contents and disparaging philosophy and metaphysics (the attempt to see actuality in the phenomena).  He saw this as a concession to the scientific method.

On the other hand (later in his life especially), he sought a more spiritual reality.  What actually were spirits?  What was synchronicity?  What was God?  His pursuits (mostly, but not entirely) in these metaphysical realms seemed to attract the interest of the spiritualistically-inclined to his thinking.  But, I would argue, it also allowed this mindset to confuse Jung with a guru or transfer the guru archetype onto him.

But my real point is that he ultimately rejected a "unified field theory" here.  He saw no synthesis and even disparaged the attempts to find one.  He accepted a divided consciousness on the intuition/sensation axis.  On one hand he was a "scientist" that phenomenalized the psyche and its products . . . and on the other hand he was a mystic who said, "I do not believe in God, I know."

As his primary axis, intuition/sensation was too divided to be subject to coniunctio/synthesis.  I see this as an inconsistency in Jung's thinking . . . and ultimately disagree with his conclusion.  The intuition/sensation coniunctio is possible . . . but it necessitates an essential compromise (for the intuitive) of the primary function.  The unified theory would have to see the archetypal as ultimately biological (in my opinion), compromising some of the "as-ifness" of spirituality.

I think some of the alchemists did see this (more clearly than Jung did).  They represented it as the extraction of spirit imprisoned in matter (first opus) and then the re-attribution of the spiritual to matter (second opus).  This is at least what I find most sensical when we look at the "de-spiritualization" of the second opus as depicted emblematically in the Rosarium Philosophorum.
 

OK, this is where the dogs of digression seem to have loosed themselves from the sled  (-)dogrun(-).  If the perverse intricacies of my alchemical/biological yarn-spinning hold any interest for you, you can find the digressive remainder of this post/thought here.

Yours,
Matt


You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Rohche

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Re: Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2007, 07:40:32 AM »
I didn’t mean to spur a whole separate thread!

I just thought that the physical creation we see all around us, and of which we are a part, might be mirrored somewhere on an archetypal level.  Masculine and feminine, two great powers in nature, coming together to give birth to something new, each playing an equal but different role.

In that the bringing together of consciousness and unconsciousness creates a new synthesis, I guess the physical is reflected in a spiritual way.  This is not, however, played out in different roles by anima and animus, from what I'm hearing anyway.

Oh well, just a thought.

If I come across a similar idea somewhere, I’ll be sure to throw it up.

Roger

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Re: Differences in Feminine & Masculine Individuation
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2007, 12:10:35 PM »
I feel like getting wild!.
I have dreamt so often that my house was transparent that I must give it some outer dimension too, (though there is another meaning to it I won't develop now).

At the deep bottom of ‘things’ there is no image. What is there is ‘just’ an energetic tension: a bipolar system where the tension between the two brings the third. So if we want to be theoretical enough we’d better speak of pole 1 and pole 2 thus avoiding the anthropomorphic reduction, or {spirit-psyche} and {matter-psyche} as Remo puts it.

The rest is only the way it gets to consciousness, through layers of representations proper to each being and varying as such (woman, man, extraverted smoking type, introverted nose-scratching type and the lot… (-)monkbggrn(-))

So it also means that ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ are potentially the same in the realisation of the third.

At the moment, in our time, for this to happen the ‘masculine’ has to become the smaller part. For too long a time outer ‘masculine’ (Logos) aggression and power have reduced the ‘feminine’ to a dark devilish dimension. If the third has to come out and incarnate we have to drop that aspect and unite with the feminine (Eros), melt and not fecundate (this would be too much power again) but become her own sperm.

This certainly might sound strange. But these are words. Said differently it could be that each time we do not try to understand a priori or at the same time but let our body talks to us and bring us the understanding, our Logos aggression stance dissolves into the potential world of the body (brings energy to it) this energy is transformed by the body itself and turned into a fertilizing impulse that gives back spontaneous images/sensations at first just observed or gleaned.
From that a new king is born = we can do something with it.

(Oh! Some perverts around could deduce from the above that my body is a she!  ::))

It is one aspect of Unio corporalis, and is true as much for women as for men.

This is an utterly post-post Jungian post.
And I agree that transparent is not a synonym for ‘easy to understand’.

Rolling on the floor laughing Roger