Author Topic: The Self  (Read 7874 times)

Matt Koeske

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The Self
« on: March 04, 2007, 03:22:45 PM »
What really IS the Self?

Is it the soul?  The spirit?  The "true personality"?  God?  The god image?  A delusion?

How do we recognize the Self . . . and what does such recognition lead to? 
How is the Self different from the ego?  Is it different?

Why does the Self seem to want something from us?  What does it want?

Let's do something a bit "unnatural".  Let's sit down and try to suss out what this thing really is.

Sound off.

Regards,
Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

rgh

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Re: The Self
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 10:33:06 AM »
I can tell you what Jung meant when he used the word.

In my intro I spoke of the unique universe onf experience each one of us has to deal with. This universe includes the unconscious as it presents to each of us. And to each of us this involvement, this interaction, is different.

If we look at our ego and consider this as our conscious adaptation to life and our understandings of the world and ourselves, then add to this that universe of interaction which comprises our unique relationship, our image of the unconscious with which we work to create more consciousmess - then that is the self - the unique conscious and unconscious universe of the person.

In Jung, the term means the "whole" of the individual psyche including those personal elements of archetypal or collective relation which pertain to the person and their developmental potential.

To the subjective mind the "self" is indeed like "god" for it is the only referential image of the collective or wider experience beyond ego knowing, but to confuse the self with "god" as a totality is wrong, for it merely points subjectively to such.

Projection of the self creates the notion of "god out there", for it seems we find the unconscious outside of ourselves. But what we find is our own relation to the unconscious, not the "whole" of the unconscious. Our images remain our own, even if collectively held.

No Matt, the self is neither God, nor "spirit" nor anythintg really. It is a term for that collective whole which is the person in his or her conscious and unconscious attributes.

I think it is unfortunate that in using the term, Jung inadvertantly created a connective metaphysic between psychological understanding and those unconscious projections which create the animist or spiritualist viewpoint. This has developed into a kind of automatic assumption on the part of many to equate Jungs psychological idea of the self with the subjective images of its own projection - whereas, in truth, his point was that such images are merely pointers to the wholeness or unity of psychic function.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 10:38:22 AM by rgh »

Karen

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Re: The Self
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2007, 11:50:20 AM »
I agree, it's symbolic language. What I'm understanding is that wholeness, The Self, is not round like what is often used to depict it, the circle. I think it's inaccurate and misleading because it points us, our minds, to this concept that we must fit into a certain geometry to be fully human ~ which, it seems to me, that the experience of our full humanity is really the ambition behind the work of meeting the Self.

Matt Koeske

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Re: The Self
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2007, 03:31:30 PM »
Hi Robert and Karen,

Yes, I agree that this notion of the Self is a symbolic language not indicative of specific, material thing.  I believe Jung called the unconscious a "process" (as opposed to a thing) . . . at least in his later years.  There seems to be a tendency among Jungians to conflate the archetypal with the material . . . and to base the measurement of value on how "material" these archetypal manifestations appear to them.

I think this sets up a false paradigm for relation to the unconscious/Self.  It is effectively an attempt to value a thing (the unconscious) for what that thing specifically is not (material).  This contradiction is bound to lead to "egoic intrusions" . . . which would most likely show themselves in the anthropomorphization of the Self (the seeing of egoic qualities in the Self).  This is, of course, prevalent in the archetype of the godman and the various systems of thought based on this archetype.

Principally, these are the ancient Mystery religions . . . of which Christianity appears to be a later development.  Jungian psychology is also based on these Mystery/transformation symbols . . . and in Jungian psychology, the Self archetype does seem to have a dual form: as both the whole of the psyche and as the godman, who is the bridge between the ego and the Self or a representation of the Self-devoted ego.

But there is a major complication in this archetype, one which is definitely indicated in the Christian mythos, but which, at least to my satisfaction, Jung does not adequately explore.  He was aware of it, and he wrote of it frequently enough, but he did not explore it.  That is, the godman archetype comes with its own specific and rather potent shadow.  In Jungian terms, this would be archetypal inflation.  In alchemy, it is associated with the Old King.

I would describe this figure as the element of the shadow that does not clearly differentiate between the ego and the Self and hopes to use or channel the Self to promote egoic interests and desires.  It wants, for instance, immortality . . . and also adulation from others.  It wants the Self to come through the ego and materialize to the outer world (where the ego can "get the credit").

Jung's approach to this inflation was (at least in his professional writings) to advise the ego/individual to resist it, to form a little fortress against the darkness of the unconscious.  Yet, from what we know of Jung's personal life, he took a less resistant approach, allowing himself to express the unconscious through his painting and play and stonework . . . and also in "inflation texts" like the "Seven Sermons" and in the so called Red Book with its "high flown language" . . . or so we might gather from Jung's own descriptions of this text.

There's a major discrepancy here, I think.  And it's a problem that imbues the Jungian shadow in such a way that the individual "goal" of Jungian psychology (i.e., individuation) is undermined by the very formulation of the process itself.  In my opinion, inflation is the major obstacle to individuation, and individuation is itself a process of sorting out inflation (as opposed to denying, repressing, or controlling it).

But Jung's written theory of individuation falters in much the same way the Christian mythos (especially as interpreted through Church dogma) falters.  That is, it doesn't adequately differentiate and formulate a method of dealing with the inflation shadow, the alchemical Old King.  But if we just squint slightly when looking at the Christian mythos, we can see a story about the inflation.  Jesus is put to death for "pretending to be God".  The guilty part of him must be punished, and punished in the material, collective world.  It is only in his sacrifice of this God-identified ego that he can be reborn.

But in the crushing of more-Gnostic interpretations of the Christ mythos, this kind of interpretation was shoved into the shadow.  Catholicism (the anti-Gnosticism) became a religion defined by its denial of this sacrificial act in which the earthly godman (the Self-identified ego) surrenders to death and the non-personal unconscious.  The dogma of the Church deterred Christians from pursuing the true imitatio christi while at the same time trying to raise the figure of Jesus as both man and God up into an unquestionable totem.  The inflation of the godman paradigm was then left to the shadow of the Christian power structure, the priests and bishops.  They were to be the representation of God on earth.

It is no surprise then that the history of the Church is filled with all manner of atrocities and sins: the priestly class was endowed with the Satanic shadow of the godman while it consciously fought against the Gnostic ideas that pointed to a potential resolution to this inflation (through the death/rebirth Mystery rite).

When Jung takes on the shadow of the godman in Aion, he recognizes, but does not resolve the fundamental Christian error.  That is, he sees the need for shadow . . . and depicts this as the complementary Antichrist archetype . . . but doesn't really address the incorporation of this shadow.  Nor does he connect it sufficiently to inflation.  Instead, he connects it to evil itself . . . which is a very remote, abstract concept.  Evil is non-personal by nature.  Even when Jung says that we are all capable of evil, he doesn't adequately demonstrate that evil manifests as a personal trait.  He leaves it as a remote archetype.  In this sense, it is much like the Christian God, i.e., up there, far away in heaven, remote from the personal world of the individual.

Thus Jung's notion that Christ/Antichrist make up the Christian archetype . . . making the Christian archetype very remote and non-personal (whereas the godman archetype created through the Mystery religions was specifically personal in that the god became human and the human died, albeit temporarily, through the Mystery rite; which is to say that Christianity is a totemization or distancing of the godman symbol into something remote and abstract, which is then tabooed and worshiped rather than lived).  Despite Jung's interest (even origin) in Gnostic thinking, this act strikes me as very non-Gnostic.  Gnosticism was considered a heresy by the Church largely because it took a personal or individual approach to Christ.  The alchemical philosophers carried this even farther in their magnum opus, which is specifically preoccupied with the inflation, the Old King/New King dichotomy.

Of course, Jung was an expert on Gnosticism and alchemy, so this discrepancy (as it emerges in Aion) is odd.  The only way I can make sense of this is by assuming that, personally, Jung's approach to individuation was Gnostic/alchemical, but professionally, Jung prescribed a more Christian approach.  I'm not sure why this is, but I think it definitely qualifies as an unresolved conflict in the Jungian mindset.

As a Jungian, which approach to individuation do I follow?  The one Jung prescribed or the one he actually employed?

I think this has never been adequately differentiated by the Jungian community.  It remains a piece of the Jungian shadow.  And it seems to result in a breed of Jungians who consciously uphold Jungianism as a dogma while keeping the archetype of the "ideal individuant" (the individuant who manages to sort out the inflation by living/working through it) in their shadows.  Jung, then, becomes a mystic, a special guru who descended into the unconscious and was reborn out of it in a way that can only be admired (and fetishized), but never emulated.

It is the problem of Church Christianity all over again.  Except Jung is put in the place of Christ.  We cannot be like Jung, therefore all we can do is worship him.

Through this breakdown of Jungian thinking, the entire process of individuation is fetishized and made into a totem.  It becomes entirely non-practical, a thing done only in the spiritual imagination or a thing that is intuited but never actualized.

This is a major disagreement I have with the conventional Jungian mindset . . . and perhaps the major source of conflict with some of the Jungians I've encountered "on the battlefield", as it were.

-Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Matt Koeske

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Re: The Self
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2007, 03:25:08 PM »

I started writing a post about the potential for a biological foundation to the Self, but it became more like an essay.  I didn't want to bog this thread down too much, so I posted it in the "Religion-Science Coniunctio" section where my pet project is slowly developing.

The post can be found here: An Essay: On the Biological Self.

It may be worth reading if you are very interested in this subject.

-Matt
You can always come back, but you can’t come back all the way.

   [Bob Dylan,"Mississippi]

Sealchan

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Re: The Self
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 06:29:16 PM »
Here are some thoughts/questions regarding Self in no particular order...

There seem to be two types of Self symbolism:
1.  Geometrical representations (mandalas, etc.)
2.  Personal, godman representations (Jesus, Buddha, etc)

_____

I have coined a term "whole terms" that are meant to refer to words that designate the set of all things.  This includes the following terms (with my own peculiar definitions):

1.  God: the set of all that is (being)

2.  consciousness: the set of all known things

3.  the unconscious: the set of all possible known things

4.  Universe: the set of all (physical) things

5.  Self: the relationship of all things

Whole terms are interesting because many of the philosophical quandries that apply to one apply to the others.  These include:

1.  whole terms refer to everything but not fully to each other as if they are different connotations of the "ALL"

2.  each whole term carries with it a mystery as to its source: who created God?

3.  each whole term carries with it some inherently mysterious qualities: what is consciousness?  how are space and time really one seemless "fabric"

_____

As the ego develops it not only strengthens consciousness but also develops self-consciousness.  I think that the development of Self is probably related to this as is the Old King/New King dichotomy. 

Rather than an old tyrannical king being shadow, I think of the shadow as the compliment to the ego.  The Old king is the old ego and the hero, who quite often becomes the new king is simply expressive of a self-conscious process of transition.  The shadow is the ego's brother-guide along the path and not the negative aspects of the ego.  The shadow, in other words, doesn't = bad ego, just a compliment (whether ego antogonist or argumentative friend) that has a lessor authority in the whole personality.

The Old King/New King introduces the idea of ego development as time based or cyclical.  So past ego = Old King, future ego = New King = Self image.

The shadow as adversary evolves into the lower fool or sidekick who, nonetheless, embodies a complimentary excellence to the ego's.  This also helps to explain the quarternic personalities that arise in certain dreams and stories which include a "higher" couple and a "lower" couple that represent a mandalic squaring of the circular Self.  For example, the characters in Mozart's "The Magic Flute".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Zauberfl%C3%B6te

I haven't read the works of Jung you have read Matt, but I wonder if my more restricted sense of the shadow might conform to Jung's and that this is why you see an absense of shadow in Jung in certain contexts.